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Wryte
topic
08:13:36 PM Mar 1st 2014
I don't think Continuity Cameo applies here, since the human world is a parallel universe rather than an alternate continuity. I've commented the entry out for the time being rather than deleting it yet.
Emptybee
topic
10:30:46 AM Oct 24th 2013
Reality Is Unrealistic seems to be stretching to add a trope.

Are peanut butter crackers really controversial and I just missed it?
Elfkaiser
topic
08:57:05 PM Aug 17th 2013
What An Idiot Discussion. Maybe relevant since it feels like like the movie has an Idiot Plot is being mentioned everywhere or at least more than necessary.
linksmower
topic
08:06:26 AM Jul 25th 2013
Telcontar
moderator
08:12:16 AM Jul 25th 2013
Main/ redirects for works are discouraged, and cut in some cases, because we want everyone to use namespaces.
MarkLungo
topic
01:50:45 PM Jul 22nd 2013
I think the page pic should be changed to one that shows the characters. Anyone agree?
TheOtherSteve
topic
08:57:04 AM Jul 10th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.42
Removed this due to a potential Edit War. Feel free to talk it out here.

rylasasin
10:11:44 AM Jul 10th 2013
"She's got her own Celestia and Luna,"

NO.

SHE.

DOESN'T!!

She has a HUMAN PRINCIPAL named Celestia and a HUMAN VICE PRINCIPAL named Luna. Neither of which have, in their entire lives, casted a SINGLE spell, or figured out how to use their wings (due to reasons of not having any). And yes, when they enter they will gain a horn and wings. However, this doesn't mean ANYTHING due to the fact that they will not have any idea on how to use magic (since they never learned any spells) and never learned to to fly.

And no, they won't "magically gain" this knowledge either, since this completely flies in the face of everything established about trans-dimention travel in the movie (that is, that just because your bodies transform, doesn't' mean your mind transforms along with it. You still have to (re) learn these important things. Otherwise, twilight wouldn't have been in even an 8th the awkward situations she was in during the whole movie.)

So what you have instead is Not-Celestia and Not-Luna. COPIES. Copies that have no special powers or at the very least don't know how to use them. And it gets worse.

Not only do you have HUMAN (not)Celestia and HUMAN (Not)Luna, You've also made them ZOMBIE Celestia and ZOMBIE Luna. Which basically means that not only do they not know how to use spells or wings (or anything else. Hell, Sunset needs her two demon minions just to GET THEM TO GO TO THE PORTAL. They can't even process VERBAL ORDERS, that's how brain-dead they are.) even if they DID know how to use their powers or were even gained them in the first place (which again, is by itself is a stretch and a massive contradiction.) That knowledge is lost.

So really, all she "has" is a pony that looks like Celestia and a pony that looks like Luna, but is in all other respects no different than the rest of her mindless {Mooks}.

"Equestria is not populated by soldiers,"

Nor does it need to be. Zombies are not really dangerous (especially to a nation composed of a third of flying creatures, a third of magic-using creatures and a third strong enough to cripple you with one kick on the leg) unless your enemies outnumber your forces 10-1 at the very least, and have means to autonomously themselves. These have neither advantage (which yes, technically makes them not zombies, and because of the fact that they aren't undead. They do however... moan like zombies, look like zombies sans usual flesh decay, act like zombies and shuffle about like zombies. So they're basically zombies. Well, Pseudo-Zombies.

"So an army of ponies"

50-200 ponies, especially zombified ones, is hardly an "Army" in this context. Enough to invade a small or medium sized town with light defenses maybe, but not a heavily defended Capital City like Canterlot or the Crystal Empire.

"who will attack anyone Sunset tells them to without hesitation will be much more effective than a motley collection of ponies, regardless of whether they're outnumbered."

That have no combat experience, no real combat capabilities, no strategy beyond zerg rush, and not even a real numeric advantage? Yeah, a likely story.

The crown works in Equestria too, the implication is that while Sunset needed to be at CH to get it to work in the first place there's nothing that says it will stop working once back in Equestria,

Except for the fact that it didn't work for her in Equestria. And there's nothing to say that it WILL work for her (that's the important part. FOR HER) in Equestria, outside of her own assertion in demon-form (which, again, could just be Villainous Breakdown.)

Learn how "Burden of Proof" works.

"The abilities of the Crystal Heart are vague at best, so she can be forgiven for underestimating them, supposing its magic would work on Sunset."

Being able to kill (yes, kill) a thousand year old sorcerer that's much more powerful and omnipresent than Sunset Demon is hardly "Vague"

"So really, her two mistakes were Discord (whose freedom she probably didn't know about)"

.... and somehow she knows about Alicorn/Princess twilight sparkle and the Elements of Harmony? .... Yeah, Cool Story Bro.

Really, all this is here, is a sad attempt by fanboy apologists to save their sinking ship now that the initial brony fan-ecstasy has worn off and public opinion is starting to turn on them, by trying to convince the rest of us that their plothole-filled movie isn't full of holes.
SomeNewGuy
10:23:32 AM Jul 10th 2013
You do realize that you just outed yourself as a Fan Hater troll, right?
JapaneseTeeth
12:41:32 PM Jul 10th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.44
Okay, I think that there is a semi-valid example here (Sunset's plan to take over Equestria with an army of about 150 people is riddled with Fridge Logic), but the phrasing needs to be toned down. Something like

"Sunset's plan to take over Equestria with an army of highschoolers doesn't feel very well thought out if you think about what "invading Equestria" would require. "

Or something like that.
Eagal
06:14:01 PM Jul 10th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.43
Works for me.

Though, a hundred and fifty seems like a somewhat small number. Depending on the size of the city, there could be more than ten times that number of students who attend Canterlot High.
Peteman
06:21:11 PM Jul 10th 2013
You know, if she was able to mind control the school, maybe she was expecting to be able to mind control the ponies on the other side. Even if the transformed humans don't offer much of a threat, they might serve as enough of a distraction for her to take over everyone else.
rylasasin
10:19:00 PM Jul 10th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.43
@Some New Guy

Ad Hominem: Because when you don't have an actual argument to respond with, attacking the person making the argument will suffice, right?

@Egal: Problem is we don't really see the city/town at all so we can't count on that. As far as we know, Canterlot High could be in the middle of a metropolis or an unincorporated town, or even just out in the country. We don't see the surrounding area, so we know nothing about the surrounding area. We've seen the size of Canterlot, and plus we've seen that there are TONS of guards in it during A Canterlot wedding. (And before you bring up the changelings, you have to remember: The Changelings did have a significant numerical advantage of at least 3-1 at the very lowest (though possibly more like 5-1), and had the time to gather their army (more on that below) and on top of that the changelings were not mindless zombies with no real form of attack, they were actually semi-competent soldiers that were most likely trained and groomed for this exact thing. And that had both wings and magic to boot, along with the ability to use both proficiently.) Same goes with the Crystal Empire (which is HUGE, virtually a city-state.)

Plus her implication to twilight is that she plans to invade immediately rather than gather up more soldiers first. (Which, ironically makes sense, since she's first of all on a strict time limit. I mean, there's only so many zombies you can make, march to the portal (on foot no less), and then file through the portal 1-3 people at a time before the clock runs out and you're stuck on the CLH side for another 2.5 years. Good luck not attracting the attention of the military during that time.

And speaking of which that's another problem with the whole "Zombify the city" thing: It's basically an open invite for the military to take you down. Yes you might be able to get away with zombifying a single school with no one noticing (if you leave right away). But a whole city? not so much. And yes, your magic might be able to help you in a firefight... at close range if you can see them coming. But on the other hand, get a sniper several miles away with a Barrett or a anti-air missile flying at you at mach 4 and odds are that crown won't help you much.) And call it guessing, but somehow I doubt turning into a demon-girl makes you bulletproof. Let alone missile proof. Let alone nuke proof (which is what it usually comes to during "zombie invasions")

@Peteman:

Again, as I said when I debunked the "She has her own Celestia and Luna" argument: zombies are zombies. In that state of (lack of) mind there is very little difference between a unicorn, an earth pony, and a pegasus. A slow shuffling zombie is a slow shuffling zombie.

And on top of that it does not really factor in the possibility that since equestria is more exposed to magic, ponies will have a higher resistance to these sorts of things (especially unicorns, and ESPECIALLY the more powerful ones.) and/or don't possess the means to reverse it.

On top of that, once you get your invasion in full swing, if you brainwash on-the-go pretty much all the attention will be focused on you rather than your minions, thus defeating the point.
Elfkaiser
03:22:00 PM Jul 11th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.8
Just some opinions.

While the analysis of what is clearly a flaw of Sunset Shimmer's plan is a bit too over-analytical, it does have a point as it provides a real bit of Fridge Logic.

However, it might be best to place it in the Fridge section rather than the main one as Idiot Ball or more specifically Villain Ball. From what I understand based on the description of the Villain Ball trope, it talks about a villain failing because they did one or more stupid things instead of being smart. It doesn't talk about the potential of a villain's plan failing based on Fridge Logic from what I can understand based on the examples in Idiot Ball and Villain Ball. More of a "Why they didn't do that instead" rather than a "Hey, your plan's gonna suck".

Besides the whole zombie thing and the humans being less adept at magic in Equestria can be seen as WMG to an extent I guess. I mean sure a zombie Celestia and zombie Luna wouldn't be as effective as the non-zombie versions. However if they do turn into exact copies and are controlled completely by Sunset. Wouldn't that mean that Sunset can just simply access their powers regardless if they personally know how to use them or not. Same goes for the other zombies.

As for the crown, it was established earlier on that magic was not possible until it was later proven that was possible after all. However take note, all that magic came from a crown that originally came from Equestria. Is the magic being done an effect of the human world rules imposing on the crown, or is it the that crown imposing it's magic on the human world. If it's the latter, who's to say that it will continue working after Sunset passes the portal and into a world that actually compliments the crown's powers.

True there's no proof that such things would happen and Sunset would succeed, but the proof that Sunset's plan would fail isn't exactly stable either since it never got pass Twilight defeating her. It's just WMG on a hypothetical scenario that never happened.

As for other things such as filing the students 1-3 people at a time and attracting the military, and probably the whole debate in general, I think it's best to just see it as just a movie, relax, and just enjoy it. Over-analyzing a movie can ruin it a bit.

On a side note, I don't think saying "a sad attempt by fanboy apologists to save their sinking ship now that the initial brony fan-ecstasy has worn off and public opinion is starting to turn on them, by trying to convince the rest of us that their plothole-filled movie isn't full of holes" was warranted. At most, it just looks like the opinion of a douche bag.
rylasasin
08:29:38 PM Jul 11th 2013
"However if they do turn into exact copies and are controlled completely by Sunset. Wouldn't that mean that Sunset can just simply access their powers regardless if they personally know how to use them or not. Same goes for the other zombies."

Not really. Its indicated that she doesn't really have that much direct control over them. Otherwise, she wouldn't need & wouldn't have told snips and snails to herd them to the portal for her, she would have just made them do it.

Also, hard to enjoy a movie that really should not have existed in the first place.
Elfkaiser
09:29:28 PM Jul 11th 2013
Well, based on what was shown she was probably pressed for time and probably needed somebody to herd the whole lot. Besides if two elite mooks are capable of herding the lower ranking ones, shouldn't the one they all derive their power from be able to have direct control over all of them. Otherwise what would be the point of having all the power.

In another way, you could see Sunset's control setup similar to Sauron for Lord of the Rings, Arthas from Warcraft, or any other dark overlord. Those overlords have vast power and control over countless evil armies, a number of which are mindless zombies in one way or another. However instead of simply controlling their armies all by themselves, they have various generals and lieutenants that micromanage the various minions. Sure you can say that doing this way means the overlord doesn't have complete direct control over their whole army, however they are still in control nonetheless and aren't forced to multitask the supervise every single individual minion.

True, Sunset Shimmer's army is not as big as those overlords, however having a system in place for any army no matter the size is always a good idea.

As for not enjoying a movie that shouldn't have existed in the first place, I think it's best to leave one's personal feelings a bit when dealing with it on a whole. The movie indeed is a Broken Base amongst fans however decrying all the possible plot holes it has and idiotballs the various characters have, and saying all those who liked it or have different positive interpretations of it are dumb or are sad fanboy apologists, is a bit sad in itself. I mean it does have its Narm Charm and besides its target audience are supposed to be little to teenage girls. The plot's not meant to be over-analyzed, it's meant to be enjoyed by girls who like that sort of stuff and not by people who can be seen as similar to those who question how could Voldemort possibly succeed against gun totting muggles with a bunch of medieval stasis locked wizards. It's just a movie afterall, just relax and just enjoy it. If you can't enjoy it, then don't attack those that do enjoy it.
Elfkaiser
04:40:22 AM Jul 12th 2013
@ rylasasin again

Okay based on what you've been writing around the Headscratchers and WMG sections of this movie, what's with your massive Hate Dumb with the movie. Sure there are Fridge Logic created plot holes, some characters holding the Idiot Ball, some cliches found in High School settings, but other than that I don't think it deserves all the ire you've been giving. I mean if its not Sunset Shimmer's plan being an Idiot Plot, it's Flash Sentry being a symbol of everything that this movie supposedly does wrong and he probably wasn't supposed to not exist in the first place.

I know the movie's a Broken Base, but come on, venting it out on TV Tropes is really inviting a flame war with yourself and those who actually liked the movie here. I admit that it is indeed ultimately a market based strategy by Hasbro to sell a new line of toys, however it isn't that bad.
Peteman
05:04:56 AM Jul 12th 2013
@rylasasin As I've pointed out in the WMG section, there are at least 7 different episodes where magical mental influence plays a part or is referenced, indicating the only resistance ponies have is not to get hit in the first place (I'll be adding Twilight's Memory Spell and Twilight's Parasprite Alteration Spell soon enough, because although the latter doesn't include ponies, it does involve creatures subjected to the likely high-magic areas of the Everfree Forest). And before you point out that a lot of these involved skilled and powerful spellcasters like Sombra, Chrysalis and Twilight, not only was one of those involving a drug made out of common substances, but what do you call a personal student of Princess Celestia empowered by arguably the most powerful artifact in Equestria if not skilled and powerful?

And as for the tactics, in my suggestion, the zombies aren't the primary means of conquest, the mass-enslavement spell is. All she needs to do is use the zombies to buy enough time so she can enslave everyone else in the area. An army sent to oppose her has the very real possibility of joining her.
saske1
topic
08:52:04 PM Jul 7th 2013
Should someone do a character page thingy for the movie?
MsCC93
05:41:09 AM Jul 8th 2013
The characters are already on the character sheet for the show here.
NonHausdorff
topic
07:14:19 AM Jun 27th 2013
Ladies and Gentlecolts, there appears to be a misconception about this movie; it is believed a certain trope-example line is averted in some alternate "versions" of this movie. No such alternate versions exists. There is one and only one movie and you will find that you will hear the correct line if you listen to the movie at a higher volume.
PDL
topic
06:27:10 PM May 22nd 2013
edited by 216.99.32.43
Okay guys, we know there's a lot of "drama" over this adaptation but do we really need to bring it up in every single entry of page of this article? I mean, I'm apprehensive of it myself, but it's extremely immature to state how much its going to suck even though it isn't out yet.

At least it isn't a live adaptation directed by M.Night Shyamalan.
AceOfScarabs
topic
04:58:29 PM May 17th 2013
In before rage edit locks on either this or its inevitable Darthwiki or Dethroning or YMMV pages.
back to WesternAnimation/MyLittlePonyEquestriaGirls

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