Main Villain Sue Discussion

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02:30:12 PM May 3rd 2017
I personally don't believe this trope even exists. The inherent nature of a Mary Sue is to have a character without flaws. I would argue being evil is an inherent flaw. Mary Sues in general are hard to truly define since we never know how the author designed them. But the general idea for a Mary Sue is when the story revolves around them without obstacle. And a villain is by their very nature an obstacle.

A simple Karma Houdini or Magnificent Bastard will suffice.
09:21:51 AM Dec 2nd 2013
I think we should put Red Hulk back as the Trope image. I mean that guy screams Sue.
10:02:06 AM Dec 2nd 2013
Probable problem: Just a Face and a Caption.
10:06:40 AM Dec 2nd 2013
Find a picture that indicates that he's a Sue. Just a picture of him would be Just a Face and a Caption.
10:10:53 AM Dec 25th 2013
There are several pictures that could work: Him on the Surfer's board with Terrax's axe, him lifting Thor's hammer, him beating the hell out of the Omnipotent Watcher.
08:22:25 AM Oct 7th 2011
Did someone cut all the examples?
10:05:53 AM Oct 7th 2011
It was decided that it was in the wiki's best interests to make all the Sue tropes description only.

Judging by the many edit wars that have occurred on nearly all of them, I can see where they're coming from.
09:20:58 AM Dec 2nd 2013
I can see it too, but I'm not a fan of just phasing out examples completely. IMO, that really seems like Mods not wanting to moderate. I can understand putting the examples back, then locking however.
11:44:31 AM Aug 25th 2017
Why not just instate it as a YMMV-only page, keep the flame banner at the top explaining why people aren't allowed to edit, and lock the page so that it can only be updated by request?
12:00:57 PM Aug 25th 2017
Because 1. there's so much debate and subjectivity as to what qualifies as a Sue that all non-YMMV sue trope have be declared no examples, so why should Villain Sue be different? 2. I find that any examples can be placed under Invincible Villain without any of the fuss this trope has.
10:37:24 PM Aug 28th 2011
Y'know, all these various "Sue" labels are completely useless. They ascribe author intent, whatever it is, which is impossible to prove or disprove. Really, I don't see how any of them are different from being an Internet Psychiatrist or plain old name-calling. They should be stricken from the vernacular or, at least, made into terms as laughable and immature as 13-year-olds calling each other fags over Xbox Live.
06:07:11 PM Oct 6th 2011
...wouldn't having examples on the Sue pages serve to better explain how a character can be a Sue in the first place?

Just wondering...
08:19:22 PM Aug 12th 2012
No, the Sue labels aren't useless. They are the exact opposite. They're useful. Proof is, they get used. They are a shorthand for "this character is ridiculously good/beautiful/powerful" and that is a thing that happens a lot. People need a way to say it, and when one came along they embraced it.

Making a value judgement on a work's realism isn't the same thing as name-calling.
10:17:38 AM Dec 25th 2013
Yes Radix it would, but I guess no one wants the extra work.
06:29:08 AM May 30th 2011
Are we allowed to bring in forum characters to use for this or is that not-notable enough? Because teh character I'm thinking of really, really fits into this trope (like, heads and shoulders above every other horrible character I've seen on forums).
02:52:52 PM Mar 26th 2011
Did someone delete the entire film section for this?
01:19:11 AM Jan 23rd 2011
Would you say the T-X from Terminator is a Villain Sue? She has the morphing abilities of the T-1000, is much, much stronger than the T-800 (who, in previous parts, was portrayed as the perfect killing machine) and has lots of special abilities (plasma cannon, lots of on-board backup weapons, nanomachines). I've also heard of comics where she curbstomps the T-1000, killing him with one shot.

Still, I'm not certain whether the T-X is a villain sue, because her abilities worked for the plot of T3, and she got beaten up quite badly, not to say defeated. However, compared to the rest of the terminator universe, she is completely overpowered. After all, she made the iconic T-800 "obsolete".
08:43:44 AM Jan 23rd 2011
I wouldn't think so. Just because she's very powerful doesn't make her a Villain Sue, just a logical escalation of the threat from the previous two films. She didn't hog the spotlight, the universe didn't bend in her favor, and she was eventually defeated using non-ass pull means.
11:55:01 AM Jan 23rd 2011
Okay, you just convinced me.
11:05:54 AM Oct 20th 2010
edited by IsadorLevi
The Death Lords from Exalted aren't really Villain Sues. The scope of their power isn't really that great. They're just ghosts with a few extra tricks and the patronage of the Neverborn; it is quite possible for living Exalted of almost any type to become their equals and superiors. Their armies are heavily restricted (and again, it is conceivable for player characters to match or outdo them at the higher levels). And there is an in-canon explanation for why they haven't destroyed Creation which emphasises how weak they are; the Neverborn are fickle, capricious, and quite insane, and will not accept anything other than absolute and complete success from the Death Lords. The Death Lords are so terrified of what the Neverborn may do to them that they won't implement any plan which they don't think has a 100% chance of success. This on top of the fact that they're kind of kicking their feet on the issue, since they don't really want to kill Creation.
10:49:58 AM Oct 15th 2010
Was the Videogames section removed from this page for any particular reason?
03:36:01 PM Oct 15th 2010
Check the edit history. If there wasn't an edit reason, and it wasn't done by one of the mods (Fast Eddie in particular can be a bit... abrupt with these things), you can probably put it back.
04:46:55 AM Sep 11th 2010
edited by Eban
I'm keeping Uchiha Sasuke as a villain sue. If anyone disagrees feel free to say why, but right now some anonymous IP keeps reverting it out. Here's why he belongs, short list:

Ass Pull Always a new ability with no cost to save his life.

Dark and Troubled Past Yup. Whole family slaughtered, reason for his Revenge Before Reason and Jumping Off the Slippery Slope.

Kaleidoscope Eyes Literally.

It's All About Me The whole plot revolves around him, literally.

Spotlight-Stealing Squad The former Trope Namer.

So Beautiful, It's a Curse Every female, except the one with Xray vision instantly lusts after him.

New Powers as the Plot Demands Need to put out the inextinguishable flames because you're frying your teammate, suddenly you can!

Only the Author Can Save Them Now see also: Ass Pull

Plot Armor Extra strength!
07:58:00 PM Sep 11th 2010
I've been the one doing the reverting, and here's my attempt at a rebuttal:

Asspull- Let'see... fight with Team 7 after his reintroduction? Had new Jutsu he learned from Orochimaru. Beat Orochimaru? Orochimaru told him how, basically. Beat Deidara? Elemental advantage + Sharingan can see chakra (both already established). Beat Itachi? Itachi let him win. Beat Killer Bee? Bee let him win. Attacked the Summit and survived? He had help. Not really a huge string of made-up powers.

Dark and Troubled Past- Have you been reading? A lot of the characters have these, though Sasuke's is one of the most extreme.

Kaleidoscope eyes- not a unique trait, or even the first character to have them.

Its all about me- Because Naruto and Sakura care about him; without that connection, he wouldn't be in the story. There's also the fact he basically disappears every other arc.

So beautiful its a curse- This one's just wrong. Yes, a few girls show interest in him. Two really pursue it, but eventually become attached for other reasons. It's also the wrong trope since it's never given much attention or his looks treated as somehow being a problem.

New Powers as the plot demands- For your specific example, Amaterasu was never "Unextinguisahble". Jaraiya proved that the first time it was used. It's not really a huge stretch.

And my bigger reasons; He's not the most powerful or the most intelligent or the most threatening of the villains. He's not invincible. He's being manipulated by the real big bad, who sees him as another pawn. He's also prone to making really bad decisions. Pulling the entry again.
06:24:42 AM Sep 12th 2010
Yeah, I just can't see a Villain Sue fucking up as appallingly as Sasuke so often does. Compare, for instance, Aizen, where it would be all part of the plan. Every time. Even when it couldn't possibly be part of 'the' or any plan.
07:16:17 PM Sep 15th 2010
edited by Anaheyla
Where Deidara is concerned, Sasuke's Great Snake Escape is more than enough to banish any reasonable attempt to defend him from Ass Pull accusations. And then theres the hawk summon which Kishi even lampshaded as being an Ass Pull.
04:55:07 PM Oct 18th 2010
Even I, as a fan of Bleach feel Aizen is a Villian Sue. But one I enjoy reading about. He's a canon one, so it isn't such a big deal as a fandom one.

I might not know Naruto as well as others, but compared to other villionous examples... uhh... no.
05:40:35 PM Nov 22nd 2015
Not only that, Sasuke out right stated he was out of chakra when he fought Deidara. The next thing he does is pull a summoning jutsu, which is CHAKRA TAXING. Emphasis on taxing. Not trying to be rude, just still a bit mad that no one pointed out that using up all your chakra like Sasuke did should kill you instantly.
11:49:43 PM Sep 5th 2010
Venom was NOT a villain sue!

"Spiderman needed outside help to beat Venom" -WRONG. Spidey looked for help but Venom often made sure that he could never contact any other heroes. Thus, Spidey would be forced to fight Venom 1 on 1 (AND WIN).

"Spidey had to exploit Venom's weaknesses to beat him" -If Spidey tries to use brute strength on Venom, Venom will pulverize him everytime. Spidey doesnt fight people like Venom with strength, he uses his intellect to outsmart them or exploit their weaknesses. How do you think he beats Rhino? You think he gets in his face and says: "Put up your dukes?"

"He could never beat him on his own despite the fact that Spider-Man has defeated foes far more powerful." -Spidey's been beating Venom since his debut. Granted sometimes Venom wins too. Thats not an example of villain sue. Thats just a villain who just doesnt lose every single fight with the hero. Sometimes Spidey wins, sometimes Venom wins, sometimes nobody wins. Thats alot more interesting than the bad guy losing 24/7.
11:30:17 PM Jul 5th 2011
edited by AP
Spidey has asked for outside help to defeat and/or contain Venom. The first Carnage arc had him sneaking away to call Mr. Fantastic and the Human Torch to beat him. Mr. Fantastic's sonic gun has been used more than once to bring him down.

As for Spidey's defeat of stronger foes, there have been instances of Peter beating Rhino with punches and kicks. In Secret Wars, he one-shotted a member of the Wrecking Crew. Even as recent as the first New Avengers arc, Spider-Man used a cement truck to knock the Hulk, of all people, unconscious. It's weird but it happens. Meanwhile, he has actually hurt his hand punching Venom while Venom didn't flinch. He was never able to simply knock Venom unconscious even though other villains were around Eddie's level (Lizard, Puma, Scorpion, etc.) and have been knocked out.

As for Venom's defeat, as mentioned, Peter would have to use exploitation weaknesses. Early on, it involved tricking the symbiote into decreasing its mass and later, it went into sonics and fire. Otherwise, Peter ran or got help. A good example of this was when he faked his own death and left Venom on a deserted island in order to get away from him.

So yes, he's a Villain Sue. Certianly just as much as Deathstroke or Doomsday.
07:54:18 PM Jul 27th 2010
edited by Comartemis
In regards to my deleted post on Cypha's Villain Sue status:

"If you're not sure she's a Sue yet, she's not a Sue. And being really good at something or posing a credible threat to a main character is not a Sue."

The post I made said right up front that she was displaying very strong traits of the trope, and I only gave her the benefit of the doubt because it's still very early in the series and Nanoha antagonists have a history of being more complex than they first appear to be (the Wolkenritter for instance).

In regards to the second point, I guess some clarification is needed: Signum is the strongest melee fighter in the Nanoha franchise. Cypha engages her in her area of specialty, breaks her sword by being hit with it, and nearly kills her with a single attack. That's not a simple case of being good at something or posing a threat to the heroes, that's a Curb-Stomp Battle that would make Sosuke Aizen proud. Between that and the Superpower Lottery that makes her immune to the attacks of every single character in the franchise, it sounds to me like Cypha fits the God-Mode Sue-type Villain Sue perfectly.
11:47:22 AM May 31st 2010
I am not going to try to spellcheck this mess. I'm just not going to. It vaguely looks like it was a conversation between two different people, but for the sake of humanity god I hope not.

  • ''Broly even tough not a canon character, and even tough he is is in fact at most as strong as a super saiyan 2 ,He is always portrayed as defeating easily the z warriors (even easier than the current bigbad) and is even regarded as the legendary supersaiyan making him part of thespotlightstealing squad ( that's goku title in the canon manga) , certainly having a ridicoulous size and no pupils only makes him suer he us also constantly complaining his power is rising.
  • ''It is made worse in merchandise like videogames were he is portrayed as strong as super vegeto and gogeta ( tough broly is in fact weaker than goku ssj3) even Vegeta who wasn't scared to fight majin buu was completly scared of him ...
He is the perfect example if a devil su his status is encoraged by the merchandise he appears and he even got a ssj3 form...
  • 'Amazingly Some people even think that he is stringer than anyone in the series ever and how he could kick anyones butt
10:45:56 PM May 31st 2010
edited by Anaheyla
I've taken a stab at translating that first bit into a somewhat coherent entry.


As you can see, it's really not a very good reason to label him a Villain Sue, whether or not he is.
03:48:27 PM Jun 1st 2010
Ok I can give better reasonS. Because he is a villian sue
03:51:04 PM Jun 1st 2010
I will edit it later with better reasons
03:11:06 PM Jun 2nd 2010
He's a Villain Sue because he's a Villain Sue. Brilliant argument.
03:20:54 PM Jun 2nd 2010
Point of clarification, the original means he defeats the Z Warriors easily, not that he's defeated by them easily. It's saying that he's only suppposed to be as strong as a SS 2 (around the same or less than the heroes), but he defeats them anyway.
06:55:07 AM May 5th 2010
After learning about Red Hulk, I believe that he is not an adequate example of a Villain Sue, when there is an even better (Well, worse, since this is a Sue trope) example in Sosuke Aizen. All in favor of changing the picture? My only problem would be that it may come as a spoiler to some, but honestly, people should know by now that Aizen is the Big Bad.
09:19:05 AM May 5th 2010
I just find the Red Hulk image more evocative of how ridiculous the trope is. Also, Red Hulk on Silver Surfer's board cracks me up.
01:27:41 PM May 16th 2010
edited by Anaheyla
If you want to change the picture you'll have to go through the Image Pickin' forums. Aizen may or may not qualify as a better/worse Villain Sue(I violently disagree with him being one at all, in fact), but Aizen has no defining moment of Villain Sue-ness that can be easily captured on a picture, while Red Hulk's pic is just too good/bad not to use.
10:14:19 AM Mar 30th 2010
Anyone else in favor of bringing back the Red Hulk picture? I understand the "just a name and a face" reasoning, but I feel it would be appropriate if it had a better caption. Something like, "Stealing the weapons of the strongest beings in the universe for a joyride. All in a day's fun."
10:23:12 AM Mar 30th 2010
I'm not a big comic back fan, but even I can tell when someone's stolen the Silver Surfer's board. It's like swinging Darth Vader's lightsabre around.
12:49:27 PM Mar 30th 2010
Serously, I know nothing about the Red Hulk storyline but one look at that image and I understood. Your caption suggestion is a good idea too.
07:33:50 PM Dec 9th 2010
Rulk's gotten a lot better now that Loeb's not writing him.

Can we change him to someone else?
07:31:50 AM Feb 11th 2011
He was an absolute example at the time of the picture, though. That's all that matters for the page image.
08:07:29 PM May 6th 2011
Just a Face and a Caption, not because it's not over-the-top that he's stolen the Silver Surfer's board, but because the Silver Surfer's board isn't all that well-known. Even people who would recognize it might not realize that the Silver Surfer is more than a guy who flies around on a silver surfboard.
11:12:16 PM Mar 28th 2010
I think the whole concept of this trope started with censors in the shows we used to watch as kids. Villains weren't supposed to actually be dangerous, and most times the heroes didn't even have to get involved! The bad guys would just bumble their way to defeat! Personally, I lost count of how many Villain Sue fantasies I had growing up. Oh, the bad guys I came up with- mad scientists, criminal masterminds, military geniuses- not so much to really kill the heroes, just to give them a challenge for once! Well, that and also to kill some of the annoying sidekicks.
05:26:27 AM Mar 29th 2010
I don't know if I'd call those "villain sue." That can be accomplished with a really effective villain. Creating a challenge, well, that's arguably the point, at least if you're anything of a decent writer.

Villain Sue takes it to a whole other level. This is the kind of person who goes beyond "challenge" into "Only the Author Can Save Them Now" territory. The Villain Sue stories I've seen not only play up the bad guy to be this obscene threat, but also downplay the strengths of the heroes, making them next to ineffectual so the villain can be evil and awesome unchallenged.
04:45:04 PM Mar 11th 2010
Can we please clean up the World of Darkness examples?
12:07:45 AM Mar 9th 2010

Where does the page quote come from?
09:12:05 AM Mar 12th 2010
Google-Fu suggests Oscar Wilde.
03:08:09 PM Mar 14th 2010
I put it up. I read it in a book of quotations, but it's more or less the only published source I can find. And as we know, Oscar Wilde is the default name if you don't know who actually said it.
03:08:50 PM Mar 14th 2010
I put it up. I read it in a book of quotations, but it's more or less the only published source I can find. And as we know, Oscar Wilde is the default name if you don't know who actually said it.
03:09:25 PM Mar 14th 2010
I put it up. I read it in a book of quotations, but it's more or less the only published source I can find. And as we know, Oscar Wilde is the default name if you don't know who actually said it.
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