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DragonSpartan
topic
02:44:39 PM Oct 23rd 2014
edited by 142.162.71.234
Should Fire lord Izumi and Druk be added to this page or the other characters page under the category Fire Nation. PS the name is Word of God from Bryan and Mike when they answered some questions on the Avatar Wiki.
Eagal
02:47:41 PM Oct 23rd 2014
Izumi hasn't really done anything to suggest she's specifically allied with Team Korra other than in the general sense. I'd put it in Other Characters.

No idea who Druk is. From the game?
DragonSpartan
02:51:31 PM Oct 23rd 2014
Druk is Zuko`s dragon and a descendant of Ran and Shaw.This is also from their answers on the wiki.
Eagal
02:56:43 PM Oct 23rd 2014
edited by 108.19.84.216
I suppose I'd probably put him on here. He helped fight the Red Lotus when they were busting out P'li.

Either that or under Zuko's folder, but he's not really a past character...
creader
topic
03:33:00 PM Oct 3rd 2014
Did Opal take a level in jerkass in the first episode of Book 4? I'm NOT trying to start a war. I was just curious on who thought she did or if her emotions were normal.
totoofze47
04:17:51 PM Oct 3rd 2014
I don't think she did. If Kuvira was as good as she claimed to be, then Opal would be the one at fault, but the episode makes it clear Kuvira has a nasty reputation, manipulates states to get them to side with her so she can gain power, and pretty much blackmailed the village Opal was protecting. She doesn't see Kuvira sticking around as helping, but as dragging the village down even further, and so does the mayor. However, Bolin still sides with Kuvira despite that instead of more directly helping the village; remember that when Opal got mad at him, Kuvira was about to leave the village to die. So, no, Opal didn't take a level in jerkass, she just realized Kuvira was a jerkass.
Eagal
04:30:53 PM Oct 3rd 2014
edited by 71.170.147.60
She doesn't want Kuvira sticking around to help. But when Kuvira makes to leave, because the mayor doesn't want her anywhere near the village, regardless of what help she may provide, Opal gets mad at Bolin. She expects Bolin to side with her over Kuvira, and abandon his job to stay with her, which would have accomplished exactly dick when going with Kuvira helps millions of people. An entire kingdom, and the stability of the world. Needs of the many and all that.

Opal is being a selfish bitch and there is no excuse for her behavior whatever you may think of Kuvira's goals, intentions or moral alignment. Because Opal doesn't care about that. She cares that Bolin isn't doing what she wants. As far as anyone in the show knows, Kuvira may be a jerk but she's on the up and up. Opal is just being petty.

The mayor doesn't like her because...she's not Earth Kingdom royalty or something. He heard rumors or something. Nothing substantive. Opal doesn't like her because she's marrying Opal's brother and because Opal's mother doesn't like her.

And then when Kuvira's posse starts handing out food and taking pictures with smiling kids and laughing along with the village people, Opal acts all sad and mopey. Why? Because she didn't get what she wanted. Because people don't agree with the rumors that Opal heard second-hand from the mayor. Because Bolin didn't side with her over Kuvira.

If we're meant to side with Opal then the writers did a piss poor job of making Opal sympathetic.

Long and short of it is Opal Took a Level in Jerkass. No ifs, ands or buts about it. It's written in stone. It's as clear as the nose on your face. It could not possibly be more clear than it is now.

Kuvira: "We'll help your people if you agree to help us."
Mr Mayor: "No, I heard from my cousin's sister's hairdresser's niece's teacher's Aunt Sally that you're a bad guy!"
Opal: "Kuvira's a conqueror (and I'm totally not just saying that because I personally don't like her. Honestly. Really.), we don't need her help!"
Kuvira: "Well, ok. Peace out ya'll!"
Opal: "Bolin, why aren't you and Kuvira staying to help?!"
Kuvira: "Well, ok, we'll stay and help."
Opal: THE SADNESS IS MAXIMUM! EXCUSE ME WHILE I TEARBEND! CRRYYYYY!"

Is there some sort of Jerkass Ball where a character acts like an asshole for a certain scene and then that trait disappears until it's convenient?

Edit: Oh, there is. Why don't we call it Jerkass Ball instead of Took a Level in Jerkass. Because I'm not saying it's like, her new baseline attitude or something.

She's definitely acting like a bitch of Katara-ian proportions, but I don't think she's just been totally derailed into this new state of being. Just a plot contrivance.
totoofze47
05:08:11 PM Oct 3rd 2014
Isn't the whole point of this page to have a discussion, and not be like "I'm right, and you're wrong"? I understand your opinion, but don't act like it's a fact that you can't deny. Plus, your argument sounds more like a Nostalgia Critic-like angry rant than an actual argument.

You make it sound like Opal is a self-centered bitch who never thinks for herself, and the mayor's a dumbass who's willing to endanger his people's lives solely based on rumors. Opal already disliked Kuvira before she came to the village and before she knew her brother was engaged to her. Also, she didn't want Kuvira to stay and "help". She wanted Bolin to stay and help, but he didn't and sided with Kuvira, which is why she got mad at him.

The mayor doesn't give a shit whether Kuvira is Earth Kingdom loyalty or not; he dislikes her because of her nasty reputation as someone who pretends to help people out of kindness, but really only seeks power. Again, she pretty much blackmailed him: Either join under us, or you'll die. And again, when the mayor refused her "help", she was about to leave them to die. I know the world isn't all sunshine and rainbows, but if Kuvira was as kind as she pretended to be, she would have stuck around to help without forcing any conditions.

So no, Opal taking a level in jerkass isn't set in stone, it's still debatable. I respect your opinion despite how overblown I think it is, but at least respect mine.
Eagal
05:45:03 PM Oct 3rd 2014
edited by 71.170.147.60
I don't follow Nostalgia Critic.

Opal's not generally that, but in this particular case, yeah. She kinda is. She's mad at Bolin for siding with Kuvira over her because she personally dislikes Kuvira and because she heard rumors about Kuvira that she in no way has any evidence of. Because she doesn't like that Kuvira isn't an utterly selfless saint who cries over every falling leaf and who's a vegetarian because hurting aminals is wrong u gaiz (exaggeration).

Because Bolin wouldn't walk off of his job, helping people with the aid of a strong leader and a large army with lots of supplies with which to help people who want that help...in order to stay with Opal, not for any real reason, but because Opal doesn't like that strong leader.

In what universe is this attitude justified?

The mayor is actually more or less irrelevant since Opal is the subject of debate here, but he refuses Kuvira's help based on rumors he's heard about her. He's willing to put his people in danger because... he doesn't like her requiring people to support the person that helped them. Truly, hers is a most terrible evil.

Kuvira's not blackmailing him. She's stating his situation plainly. He needs her help and without that help he's boned. She's not threatening to kill him. She's threatening to...agree to his wishes and leave him alone like he wants her to...how dare she.

He refuses her help because he doesn't like the rumors he's heard about her. What evidence does he have that Kuvira only wants power? What evidence do you have that Kuvira only wants power? Why should Kuvira waste her resources helping people who don't want her help? Who insult her based on rumors about how omgterribad she is?

Okay, so she's holding him over a barrel. She can leave him high and dry with nothing but the aid of two incompetent children. That doesn't give him or Opal the right to treat her like a pariah. And it certainly doesn't give Opal the right to get mad at Bolin for not siding with her over Kuvira.

Jerkass Ball, Took a Level in Jerkass, Moral Event Horizon (not really, but I needed a third thing). Whatever you wanna call it, Opal is 143% in the wrong.
SomeNewGuy
06:00:53 PM Oct 3rd 2014
Holy hell, why are you getting so worked up over this? Its only the first episode.
Lionheart0
07:01:49 PM Oct 3rd 2014
Honestly, the premier just made me think that she has a disdain for Kuvira and Bolin unluckily got caught in the crossfire.
Eagal
10:29:56 PM Oct 3rd 2014
Relevant trope is relevant. Opal doesn't get a free pass just because it's the first episode.
Eagal
12:08:28 AM Oct 6th 2014
How about Out-of-Character Moment. Being an asshole is not her usual M.O.
MadCat221
10:08:15 AM Oct 22nd 2014
edited by 71.15.13.232
I don't see it as OOC at all. She was very up-front with her dislike of Casanova Wannabe Bolin, and she's being very up-front with her dislike with him siding with an authoritarian who wronged her family. She's as blunt as a boulder when it comes to expressing her opinions... just like her grandmother.
Larkmarn
10:21:50 AM Oct 22nd 2014
edited by 156.33.241.9
Opal (rightfully) doesn't like or trust what Kuvira is doing, and she's clearly going way out of her mission by essentially forcing cities to be loyal to her.

Her job was to maintain order in the Earth kingdom in preparation for the new king. A duty she's perfectly willing to ignore if the people don't sign their loyalty to her, which is suspect at best. Later revelations prove that she's very manipulative of Bolin and, well, prove she's gone completely off-mission.

You're speaking like Opal just hates Kuvira for no reason or baseless rumors. She doesn't like her because of her actions. That's pretty justified. And she's concerned about Bolin because he's hopelessly naive. And again, it's not Out of Character at all because, well, she has always been incredibly blunt and straightforward, especially with Bolin. She's a Nice Girl but that doesn't make her a pushover.

Not to mention the Out-of-Character Moment put in doesn't really... explain how it's an Out-of-Character Moment, making it sound even more shoehorned. Also I don't really see how that could be a character trope.
Larkmarn
05:18:21 AM Oct 23rd 2014
I'm going to pull for being shoehorned.
Eagal
02:14:19 PM Oct 23rd 2014
edited by 108.19.84.216
Kuvira's actions, so far as Opal is aware, are saying "Swear loyalty to me and I'll help you." and then preparing to leave when the mayor tells her to piss off.

Opal has no basis for distrusting Kuvira other than rumor. She has not, as far as we know, witnessed any of Kuvira's so-called evil actions at that point and is relying on hearsay, nothing substantial.

You might as well say "It's okay to get mad at Darth Vader for working for the Empire. I mean, I haven't actually witnessed anyone doing anything bad, but my cousin's barber's sister's great-aunt's dry cleaner heard the Emperor is a real meany-face."

Is Kuvira evil? We know that. Now. Did Opal have any evidence of that at the time? No. Her reaction is totally unjustified.

So she has no reason to hate or distrust Kuvira other than rumors, and she certainly has no reason to demand that Bolin abandon his career based on her baseless dislike of Kuvira, or to get angry at him when he doesn't.

That's not being incredibly blunt and straightforward. That's being an asshole.

If it's not Out-of-Character Moment, I don't know what is.

sharkticon
02:20:14 PM Oct 23rd 2014
But... she is conquering towns. I mean, that's kinda past a rumor at that point. it's not like she just heard baseless rumors. she has some idea what's up and she's right.
Eagal
02:21:50 PM Oct 23rd 2014
edited by 108.19.84.216
She offered towns protection in exchange for swearing loyalty, on the completely reasonable basis that they would be boned without her help, what with bandits and suchlike.

Conquered is a very colored word that brings to mind the idea that she stormed the barricades, slaughtering anyone in her path alongside her army.

Larkmarn
04:38:51 PM Oct 23rd 2014
edited by 108.28.148.135
I agree, conquering isn't quite the right word. But Opal did see Kuvira refuse to help a town that needed help unless they agreed to be loyal to her. It's like if the National Guard refused to help a town in America unless they pledged their loyalty to the National Guard. This is probably a particular sour point for Opal since she willingly gave up everything to join a tribe of nomads to roam the country helping people for free. And Kuvira is ignoring her job unless people (who clearly do not want to) sign loyalty to her. That aside from rumors that you for some reason choose to ignore, even though Opal has been travelling the world helping people and hearing rumors. It's not "ohmigod, I heard from Becky that Kuvira's a witch with a capital B!," it's more like "you know, there have been a lot of stories about the woman who controls 90% of the Earth Kingdom." And then she goes and sees that some of the less than flattering ones are true.

Moreover, the entry does nothing to say why it would be out of character for Opal. Let's just pretend that he distrust of Kuvira was completely unfounded. She's a bit of a Spirited Young Lady who isn't afraid of Brutal Honesty. Why would it be out of character for her to not want her boyfriend to side with her over the woman who she considers turned her back on Xiofu? Especially considering there's a good chance the two sides will come to conflict over this. And Bolin is... well... easily duped. And not even he's 100% on board with Kuvira and requires her personal attention to get him reconnected to the cause. Stands to reason Opal would want to get him out of there ASAP.

It seems that you're looking for a trope to complain about this. If you want to do that, Unintentionally Unsympathetic on YMMV might be a good place to start.
Larkmarn
topic
08:18:19 AM Jun 20th 2014
  • Expy: Of Zuko. He was the heir to the throne of his homeland and was only doing what he thought was the best way to protect his people, but unintentionally wound up overstepping his authority. He was banished from his homeland for his arrogance. Then it turns out that his fate and honor are heavily intertwined with that of the Avatar. The only difference is that he never attempted to reinstate himself back to his homeland.

Really. For being exiled, he "is unambiguously and deliberately based on a character in another, older series." Other than being an exiled heir they're nothing similar in terms of personality, role, actions, or... anything, really.
Raxis
topic
10:33:58 PM Nov 15th 2013
Should we add Desna and Eska back here? Considering we seem to be keeping Varrick here for good, and they pulled Heel Face Turns, I think it's justified.
LC
topic
09:51:56 PM Nov 3rd 2013
Tonraq has more in common with Thor from Marvel's cinematic universe than with Zuko.
Raxis
topic
08:06:39 PM Oct 11th 2013
Should we move Varrick to enemies now?
STRX
08:11:49 PM Oct 11th 2013
Not yet. Remember, most good guys are jerks on the inside, so lets wait until Varrick's true side is revealed.
Raxis
09:31:25 PM Oct 11th 2013
We immediately moved Unalaq and his kids off to enemies the moment Unalaq's deception was revealed.
Torresp
11:38:06 PM Oct 11th 2013
Varrick's true side WAS revealed. What he did was low, even for a businessman.

Even if Varrick did not start the conflict, he is still a Big Bad in his own right, he will do anything to profit from the conflict, even if it means escalating tensions whenever he pleases.
Raxis
05:41:56 PM Nov 1st 2013
All right, it's time to move Varrick off the allies page if it hasn't be done so. The man's blatantly no ally of anybody but himself.
Torresp
topic
11:58:33 AM Sep 30th 2013
Why isn't the conflict a case of Order Versus Chaos? The rebels are loosely organized, and they want their freedom, but Unalaq's methods represent evil order.

Also, Varrick would be a knight Templar, because his actions did start a war and accelerate Unalaq's plans. He doesn't have the patience for diplomacy. The thing about businessmen, is that they run on diplomacy, not force. So he would be a knight Templar in protecting business, attacking Unalaq was very extreme
Hodor
12:01:46 PM Sep 30th 2013
A Knight Templar who is totally devoted to a cause, which is not good (even though they believe it to be) and will do anything to advance/defend that cause.

Varrick supports what appears to be a good cause (even if he is Not in This for Your Revolution), which would make him at worse a Well-Intentioned Extremist, but he doesn't really fit extreme measures either- merely being a revolutionary doesn't make you extreme.

Contrast Varrick with his foil, Hiroshi Sato (or really, probably most of the book 1 villains) that's a Knight Templar
universalperson
topic
07:40:45 PM Sep 13th 2013
I'm stuck using a mobile device, so can someone add in Tonraq's section that Carlos Alazraqui was Darrined by James Remar? Thanks.
TheOtherSteve
topic
05:43:56 PM Jul 1st 2013
Should we move Unalaq, Desna and Eska? It seems that they're being set up as antagonists.
Discar
08:40:56 PM Jul 1st 2013
Only once it comes out. Honestly, technically we're not supposed to put stuff from previews up at all, but just try and keep the rampant theorizing off the main pages and it should be fine.

Unless it's explicitly stated that those three are antagonists, putting them there would fall under "rampant theorizing."
tatiana
topic
12:59:12 PM Aug 2nd 2012
Does Tenzin's family have to be in the Allies page?
MrDeath
01:27:12 PM Aug 2nd 2012
Why wouldn't they be?
isoycrazy
02:33:03 PM Aug 2nd 2012
Because they seem to be on a special class of allies.
MrDeath
07:14:38 AM Aug 3rd 2012
What?
isoycrazy
09:25:07 AM Aug 3rd 2012
Tenzin and his family are more than just allies, they are Aang's children, and thus unique in terms of Korra's allies.
MrDeath
09:33:03 AM Aug 3rd 2012
And Lin is Toph's child, does that mean she gets a special page too? Iroh is Zuko's grandson, does he?

They're Korra's allies, I don't see why they should have a special section or something.
tricksterson
02:07:57 PM Aug 6th 2012
Agree with Mr Death except I can also see an argument for Tenzin's family being seperate because they are Korra's surrogate family.
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