Discussion Characters / StarWarsKyloRen

It has been two weeks now with no further discussion here. Spocktor Who suggested on the Star Wars cleanup thread that Mindlink Mates could be a subverted trope "because they already have the telepathy bond and could easily have become that but don't due to Ben's death". I do not personally think the work was setting up this trope happening since it relies on believing Rey and Ben were "in love", but I would be all right with editing the description to reflect that based on Foe Romantic Subtext some people thought they were going to become a couple which could have turned their Psychic Link into this but the Ship Sinking prevented it. However, that might read too YMMV.

As for Raised by Robots, perhaps rewording it to be an implied rather than straight trope? It is not actually depicted, but some people have assumed "Ben felt neglected" + "droid caretaker in Last Shot" = "Raised by Robots". (Again need to word carefully!)

With no responses here or in the cleanup thread, I plan to move forward with making those edits as a compromise between the positions. Mindlink Mates = subverted, Raised by Robots = implied.

Tall, Dark, and Snarky does not necessarily need to be beautiful, just look at the picture on the trope page :) As for the rest, I have no strong opinion. I wouldn't call him handsome, and I am leaning towards They Look Just Like Everyone Else!. Though he sometimes looks pretty and boyish (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/9/99/Kylo_Ren_%28Unmasked%29.jpg). The opposite of pretty boy is the Hunk and that is not him. I also think Looks Like Cesare applies.

No offense to the late Alan Rickman of course! ;)

Yeah, neither Pretty Boy nor Hunk, and since he is a Deadpan Snarker and VERY much tall and dark, I think that would work if not They Look Just Like Everyone Else!. Perhaps his appearance is too remarkable or unique to be that? But the unmasking in TFA was treated as a "whoa he just looks like a person and not a monster?" moment for Rey and the audience.

What do other people think?

I don't think They Look Just Like Everyone Else! is about being prettier/uglier that the norm; it's more about not having a Red Right Hand that marks you as the villain, the chosen one, or what-have-you. The unmasking moment was just as you said; Rey was expecting "a creature in a mask", and instead the Implacable Man after her ended up being just a normal-looking dude.

As for his looks (Tall, Dark, and Handsome /Tall, Dark, and Snarky), well, that's hugely subjective, isn't it? Still, considering the attention his actor gets, I think you could justify TDaH by calling him "unconventionally handsome".

Round Robin, that explanation makes good sense to me. There's Word Cruft on They Look Just Like Everyone Else! so how about this:

• When Rey says she was "being hunted by a creature in a mask," Kylo takes it off and reveals he is a pale young man, which visibly surprises her. In the novelization, she thinks that he could be some nobody she met on Jakku except for his laser-intense stare.

Unconventionally handsome, I like that phrasing! Pre-Star Wars he got called stuff like ugly-hot and unlikely sex symbol, and he has definitely drawn a lot of appreciation.

They Look Just Like Everyone Else! looks good. :thumbsup:

I wasn't aware that Adam Driver had that reputation pre-Star Wars. Besides, Rey also seems to find him attractive, so there's both in- and out of- universe justification for TDaH.

It sounds like Round Robin, Asherinka, and I would all be good with Tall, Dark, and Snarky but Tall, Dark, and Handsome might be too subjective? Then again, tropes about attractiveness are kind of always subjective in the end since different people have different tastes... But if Tall, Dark, and Handsome needs justification rather than seeming obvious... Where do we go with this?

I think "Rashomon"-Style fits better, and I also think in this case the example belongs to the film page rather than the character page.

If you're saying Kylo "does come off as" manipulative of Han, then that's just Alternative Character Interpretation. It's entirely possible to read him as genuine in that scene—which again, the script confirms. A YMMV trope or interpretation does not belong on the main page. In fact, IIRC there's an entry exactly for that on TFA's YMMV page.

Johnson has said various quotes about how Kylo is being genuine in his appeal about her parents. Again: "I think that this is something that he genuinely saw, and genuinely believes that because of this connection [they share], basically. It’s less like, ‘I can use this on her.’ It’s more, ‘Oh my god, we have this in common, this is more of a kindred spirit that even she realizes.’” Kylo is not coldly playing off Rey's feelings, but making an appeal to what he thinks is a kindred spirit.

That full quote further supports what I said about him not being a Manipulative Bastard. From Kylo's point of view, he's being naked and open—he's not trying to manipulate her. We know it's unhealthy, but he doesn't. He cannot be that trope because his intentions are genuine. Vader isn't considered a Manipulative Bastard for making an emotional appeal to Luke to join him, so neither should Kylo.

Again, it's not healthy, but relationships and feelings can be unhealthy without being manipulative. I'm going to hide the entry until this is resolved.

Kylo is a mad person so obviously he can justify it to himself. The fact is outwardly his behavior and actions are manipulative and can be judged as such. That he feels something for Rey doesn't change the fact that he is manipulating her as Johnson points out. When he says it's unhealthy, I don't think he meant that we should remove or dial away, or write off the unhealthy parts. Darth Vader was genuine to Luke but he still pulled a manipulative Batman Gambit to bring Luke to Bespin. You know attacking his friends knowing that Luke would feel it through the Force.

In the case of TFA and Han, I withdraw my statement, "does come off", that's unclear and incorrect on my part. Kylo is manipulating and bringing Han close to him. Asking him for help and so on. Those are his immediate actions, and there's nothing to suggest that Kylo wasn't going through with it. He is appealing to Han's sentiments there, and obviously the fact that he found it hard to go through with it, doesn't change the fact that he did go through with it, and did it deliberately.

It's not justification, it's how he genuinely feels. Justification implies he knows it's wrong and makes reasons for why he's doing it. He doesn't; he wholeheartedly believes that this is something they have in common and thus they're even more kindred spirits. He's not intending to be manipulative, but thinks he's being persuasive (which is not the same thing), so he doesn't fit the bill of a Manipulative Bastard because you can't be one by accident. Acknowledging that he's genuine in his appeal isn't dismissing the unhealthy parts—namely, how he's saying it. We can judge behavior, but we must also judge the intentions of the one behind them.

As for Darth Vader, I was talking about his "We Can Rule Together" speech to Luke, not the Batman Gambit. It's pretty much exactly like Kylo's—he also lays out a brutal truth about parentage there, then talks about how they should rule together. Yet that's not considered a manipulation attempt because Vader really means it.

Nothing except Adam Driver's acting and various official media, which portray how conflicted Kylo was in the moment. He's tearing up, he's shaken, he's hesitating. All of those things speak of a mind that isn't certain on what it's going to do—whether that be "kill my father" or "leave with my father". Or, in summation, he went through with Patricide, but that isn't to say he called Han closer with the intention of killing him. He was actually all set to ignore Han until Han called out to him. If there's nothing to suggest he wasn't going to go through with a Heel–Face Turn, then there's also nothing to suggest he didn't mean to go through with a Heel–Face Turn but faltered at the last moment. Again, that's why there's an entry about it on TFA's YMMV Alternative Character Interpretation entry.

Finally, Kylo's natural personality is wild, reckless, impulsive, childish, and he has No Social Skills—that's the exact opposite of manipulator material. He doesn't have the patience, self-control, or the social savvy to play with people's feelings. He shows one moment of calm cunning, when he kills Snoke, but that's an exception, not the norm for him.

To be honest, you are the one coming off as YMMV. I am simply focusing on what Kylo does on-screen, and not his motivations and intentions. That doesn't matter for this trope.

When Kylo asked his father to come closer, he clearly planned to use the opportunity to kill him. Maybe he had second thoughts, doubts, and yes he was struggling to go through with it, but that doesn't change that he willingly killed him. Saying otherwise is like making it sound that Kylo isn't responsible for what he does, or that he's some kind of moron.

Kylo Ren definitely has a manipulative edge which Rian Johnson openly acknowledged. Not everything about him is manipulative, but a part of him is manipulative. I see no reason at all, why his character page can't list that, since this is supposed to reflect the character in all its facets and not just the chosen bits.

I agree with Revolutionary Jack. He is manipulative, so the trope applies. The why part is curious and debatable but does not change that.

I'm siding with Apocrypha on this, I don't think it fits the trope. And the fact that there is this much debate about it means that it shouldn't be added.

Also, Kylo Ren never asks his father to come closer on the bridge. Han approaches him all on his own.

Rian Johnson has said both that Kylo Ren is being manipulative AND genuine, so we really can't take his word as proof either way when it comes to whether or not to keep this trope. You can't say "It’s less like, ‘I can use this on her.’ It’s more, ‘Oh my god, we have this in common, this is more of a kindred spirit that even she realizes.’” has less weight than "there’s much that is awful about the way that he is manipulative" when they're both coming from the same source.

And after reading the trope page for Manipulative Bastard, I don't think it should be used for every case of potential manipulation. It seems fairly obvious to me that the trope is for a character who does this often, and whose only motivation is manipulation.

Revolutionary_Jack, you're entirely missing the point if you only focus on what he does on-screen and ignore what he's thinking/feeling. Intentions definitely matters for this trope, because there's a difference between a character who plans on how to use people's emotions for their own gain, and a character who's almost been emotionally wavered before changing their mind. Or a character who isn't even intending to use the other person, but really wants them on their side. You haven't addressed any of my points, only saying Kylo "clearly" planned the opportunity to kill Han when there isn't any proof of that beyond the end result, and when textual evidence indicates otherwise (Han making the first move).

You seem to be under the impression that because Kylo killed Han, he intended from the start to kill him. No one is saying he didn't willingly kill his father, or that he's not responsible for what he did. But what he did doesn't mean he manipulated Han all along—again, he could have been being persuaded and then changed his mind at the last minute. And again, the entire scene was placed under Alternative Character Interpretation because people's mileage varied on what Kylo's intentions were—so it cannot be definitively used as an example of being a Manipulative Bastard.

The trope page should not stretch tropes to fit a character. A part of Kylo being manipulative does not make every instance of what he's done manipulation, nor does it make manipulation his only goal.

>You seem to be under the impression that because Kylo killed Han, he intended from the start to kill him.

Yes he did. That's clear in The Force Awakens. Snoke orders him to do it, and he keeps expressing hatred to Han to Rey and others. When he finally has to do it, there is hesitancy and reluctance, yes, but he still does. Obviously the director wants the audience to think that maybe Kylo will turn at the last minute, and of course they aren't going to kill the great fan-favorite. But he definitely pre-meditated to kill, and was ordered to do it, and never openly challenged or did anything to keep himself from actually going through with it (i.e. Vader's Don't Make Me Destroy You to Luke in TESB).

>And after reading the trope page for Manipulative Bastard, I don't think it should be used for every case of potential manipulation.

Even Apocrypha admits he manipulated Snoke. That's actual manipulation there. Rian Johnson admits that he is manipulative to Rey. So nothing potential about it.

And going to the page, the entry mentions: "In many cases the Manipulative Bastard personally is rarely emotional and seldom burdened by notions such as empathy, yet is all too willing to abuse it in others." Just because it's rare, doesn't mean they can't be emotional as the page acknowledges. I can amend it by saying Kylo is a rare one who is emotional. And besides the page points out that Manipulative Bastard aren't inherently evil either. Like Batman is the page image and it would be hard to say he's entirely cold and without emotions. There's also this: "Like Chessmasters, Manipulative Bastards will have some larger scheme in mind but tend to lose sight of it more easily and simply enjoy the control they have over their peers." That fits Kylo Ren who tends to indulge in petty one-upmanship over Hux, Finn, and others.

>Revolutionary_Jack, you're entirely missing the point if you only focus on what he does on-screen and ignore what he's thinking/feeling

The movie never spells that out outright. There's no voiceover or narrator. Kylo is also a damaged man, who probably believes his lies, which means that you can't entirely trust everything he says onscreen either. The only thing that is clear is what he does on-screen. And look, Anakin didn't intend to hurt Padme and he loved her, doesn't change that he strangled her and drove her to death, doesn't change that he killed children, or tortured people. Luke didn't intend to kill Ben Solo or follow through but he did raise his sword for a brief second. Actions do count.

If need be I can amend and shorten the entry, and remove the part about Han Solo, but I think the other parts can stay.

> Yes he did. That's clear in The Force Awakens. Snoke orders him to do it, and he keeps expressing hatred to Han to Rey and others.

Snoke did not order him to do it. Snoke told him Han was on the Millennium Falcon and said "we shall see" if Kylo was able to confront him; he never gave an order to kill him. Kylo is also lying about his hate—he admits in TLJ that he didn't hate his father. His expressions of hatred are an attempt to lie to himself to cover up his disappointment/hurt with Han.

> But he definitely pre-meditated to kill, and was ordered to do it, and never openly challenged or did anything to keep himself from actually going through with it

Again, he wasn't ordered to do it, and you can't say with certainty he pre-meditated it because a) he didn't initiate the conversation with Han and b) he's conflicted. You can't say he didn't do anything to keep himself from going through with it because we see him hesitating. Just because he didn't "openly" say something like "I don't want to do this" doesn't mean he didn't feel it—this is a movie, not a play where he can go on a soliloquy about his feelings. We are meant to pick up on these things from the acting, and you cannot just dismiss that as "to fool the audience".

> Even Apocrypha admits he manipulated Snoke.

I said he was cunning, not that he manipulated Snoke. He acted on how he knew Snoke would act, which is a Batman Gambit. A Manipulative Bastard would have made emotional appeals to Snoke ("let me kill her" rather than knowing Snoke would make him do it).

>And going to the page, the entry mentions: "In many cases the Manipulative Bastard personally is rarely emotional and seldom burdened by notions such as empathy, yet is all too willing to abuse it in others."

"This is the guy or gal who gets off on playing head games—clever and dangerous and lacking comedic overtones (usually). He or she always has a plan, but rather than do any work, the Manipulative Bastard prefers to play on other characters' emotions and minds and then watch the victims destroy themselves as they waste their energy on fighting against fake dangers or their friends."

Kylo has no long-term plans. He has no long-term planning ability. He wants to find the map? He gets distracted by and kidnaps Rey. He wants to destroy the Resistance on Crait? He gets distracted by and attacks Luke. Even his betrayal of Snoke was a spur-of-the-moment, Indy Ploy idea—Johnson said he knew he wanted to betray Snoke, but didn't know how or even if it'd be right then. "He walks in there knowing basically that he is going to betray Snoke and look for an opportunity, but he doesn’t yet know exactly what the mechanism is and what his opportunity is going to be. But he’s gone in there with the intent of, whether it’s now, or whether it’s later, or whenever it is."

And he is definitely not the type of guy who prefers sitting out and letting other people do the work for him—that's Snoke and Palpatine. He prefers going out there and smashing his problem to bits himself.

And again, his base personality is very unsuitable for a Manipulative Bastard. Poor impulse control, No Social Skills, emotional, wild—face it, he doesn't fit any of the qualifications.

> The movie never spells that out outright.

"Stuff is left off the script for a lot of reasons. Mostly to avoid spelling out motivations, or because they decided to change stuff to make it more visual."

You said this earlier. Now you're saying the opposite? Things in the script don't matter because it's supposed to be subtle, but subtleties in the movie don't matter because it's supposed to be spelled out? You can't have it both ways.

> Kylo is also a damaged man, who probably believes his lies, which means that you can't entirely trust everything he says onscreen either. The only thing that is clear is what he does on-screen.

This is a contradiction. You say the movie doesn't spell anything outright (after claiming it didn't need to), then say that when Kylo does, we shouldn't trust it because it's from him. Intentions matter just as much as actions—it's the difference between someone who murders for pleasure and someone who murders for revenge, for example (not that Kylo is either of those).

>And look, Anakin didn't intend to hurt Padme and he loved her, doesn't change that he strangled her and drove her to death, doesn't change that he killed children, or tortured people. Luke didn't intend to kill Ben Solo or follow through but he did raise his sword for a brief second. Actions do count.

I didn't say actions don't count. I said intentions count just as much. If you break a character down to just their actions, and ignore their motivations behind it, you ignore a great part of their character.

The other parts don't fit. He doesn't share a "twisted" version of truth with Rey, just what he experienced. His intentions in the throne room were not meant to be manipulative, and you can't be a Manipulative Bastard by accident. He doesn't have the personality, foresight, or social derring-do to be one. Snoke is the one time he's even been cunning in these movies and that's a Batman Gambit.

> If you break a character down to just their actions, and ignore their motivations behind it, you ignore a great part of their character.

A character page ought to accommodate both intentions and actions. There's a great deal of examples in Kylo's page for his intentions, but not enough for his actions. I don't think putting one entry is going to come at the expense of the other examples illustrating his intentions. Nor should it. Manipulative Bastard is just one entry on this page, and not the only one, or the main one that people will find here. Kylo is a complex character and this page should reflect all of his sides.

> He doesn't have the personality, foresight, or social derring-do to be one.

He has gone further than Palpatine, Vader, and Luke ever have. At a young age he has already done what Palpatine did in the prequels, crush the Jedi and become dictator, and kill his master. Vader failed to ever get under Palpatine's shadow and never amounted to more than his slave, while Kylo is already fulfilling his broken dream of putting a Skywalker on the throne of the Galaxy. Luke couldn't kill his father, but Kylo did.

Those actions show a great deal of derring-do, foresight, and personality. Do you think Kylo was talking smack when he said, "I will fulfill your destiny" or that he blundered his way into this.

>Snoke did not order him to do it. Snoke told him Han was on the Millennium Falcon and said "we shall see" if Kylo was able to confront him; he never gave an order to kill him.

You do know that means "Kill Han Solo" right. I mean that's a Deadly Euphemism. It's part of the villain thing, say the loud part quietly. By that logic, we don't see Michael Corleone ordering his brother Fredo's death since he doesn't explicitly tell his hitman, "kill Fredo". So Michael didn't really order his brother's death in The Godfather.

>Things in the script don't matter because it's supposed to be subtle, but subtleties in the movie don't matter because it's supposed to be spelled out? You can't have it both ways.

The fact that Kylo was ordered to kill Han Solo and that he planned to go ahead with it, however hesitantly, and reluctantly, really did happen on-screen in The Force Awakens. There's nothing subtle about it there. Kylo did regret what he did, and struggled to do it, and is going to be haunted for the rest of his life for what he did (as Luke tells him in The Last Jedi). But yeah he did do it. Saying Kylo didn't intend to kill Han is ridiculous, because if he did he wouldn't have killed him, just like he refuses to kill Leia in The Last Jedi. If Kylo wanted to, he could have avoided meeting Han, he could have gone out of his way, and when Han approached him, he could have force-pushed him far back and keep distance.

Obviously, the Force Awakens scene is the big sticking point here. So i am just responding to that. I am also willing to modify it:

I am willing to amend the entry this way, maybe you can advice me on the draft:

• Manipulative Bastard:For all his impulsive and reckless nature, Kylo Ren does prove able to prey on people's weaknesses, not because of any guile but because of his own real divided nature, which makes him unpredictable enough to make others drop their guard around him. He uses his own twisted version of his break with Luke (which he may believe) to drive a wedge between Rey and her master. He preyed on Snoke's vanity and ego, to get him to drop his guard to usurp him, and he also pushes Rey's buttons about her Changeling Fantasy to make her join him, which she sees through and rejects. Even in The Force Awakens, after initially seeming to respond to Han's offer of guidance, Kylo suckers him in close so as to kill him.

> A character page ought to accommodate both intentions and actions. There's a great deal of examples in Kylo's page for his intentions, but not enough for his actions.

A character page shouldn't contained shoehorned examples of actions, either.

> Manipulative Bastard is just one entry on this page, and not the only one, or the main one that people will find here. Kylo is a complex character and this page should reflect all of his sides.

My problem is that you are not addressing those complexities, nor his intentions, when calling him a Manipulative Bastard. You outright say we cannot trust anything Kylo says. You outright say things need to be spelled out on-screen. And you ignore the intentions behind what he does when he talks to Rey or Han. He thinks he's being persuasive.

Is Han a Manipulative Bastard for trying to plead with his son to come home? Is Leia a Manipulative Bastard for pleading with Han to bring Kylo home? Persuasion is not manipulation and Kylo's intent in his scenes with Rey is to be persuasive. His intent in his scene with Han is less clear, but that's why it belongs under YMMV.

> He has gone further than Palpatine, Vader, and Luke ever have. At a young age he has already done what Palpatine did in the prequels, crush the Jedi and become dictator, and kill his master. Vader failed to ever get under Palpatine's shadow and never amounted to more than his slave, while Kylo is already fulfilling his broken dream of putting a Skywalker on the throne of the Galaxy. Luke couldn't kill his father, but Kylo did. Those actions show a great deal of derring-do, foresight, and personality. Do you think Kylo was talking smack when he said, "I will fulfill your destiny" or that he blundered his way into this.

They show a great deal of luck, being yanked about, and smashing his way through things. Palpatine crushed a powerful Jedi Order and brought down a government, through cunning; Kylo crushed the Jedi as spur-of-the-moment (because he thought Luke had betrayed him, up until that moment he hadn't decided), through physical force (burning the Temple to the ground), and while it was weakly being rebuilt. It wasn't something he planned nor did he exercise any particular cunning in that (we don't know what happened with the "handful of students" or how they joined him, so we can't use that as an example). Kylo killed his master on a plan he thought of literally seconds before he executed it; it wasn't something he'd thought out for a while—and Vader has shown far more cleverness than Kylo (like the end of ESB with trapping Luke's friends to lure him). And really, I don't think saying "he killed his father when Luke didn't" is the best way to say he's surpassed Luke when Luke not killing Vader is one of his best moments. If anything, Luke is still portrayed as the wiser, superior one (calling him kid, effortlessly keeping ahead in their duel, outplaying him on Crait).

> You do know that means "Kill Han Solo" right. I mean that's a Deadly Euphemism. It's part of the villain thing, say the loud part quietly.

Didn't you say things need to be spelled out? Regardless, we don't know if Kylo has decided to go along with killing Han at that moment, and we don't know it on the bridge. We can't definitively say he's decided on that, or that he doesn't mean what he says, because of what he does at the end.

> The fact that Kylo was ordered to kill Han Solo and that he planned to go ahead with it, however hesitantly, and reluctantly, really did happen on-screen in The Force Awakens. There's nothing subtle about it there. Kylo did regret what he did, and struggled to do it, and is going to be haunted for the rest of his life for what he did (as Luke tells him in The Last Jedi). But yeah he did do it. Saying Kylo didn't intend to kill Han is ridiculous, because if he did he wouldn't have killed him, just like he refuses to kill Leia in The Last Jedi. If Kylo wanted to, he could have avoided meeting Han, he could have gone out of his way, and when Han approached him, he could have force-pushed him far back and keep distance.

We're going in circles. I am not saying Kylo didn't intend to kill Han when he lit the lightsaber, that's not something you do by accident. I am saying he didn't lure him over with the intention of killing him. He didn't go into the conversation planning to kill him. Changing your mind is a thing that exists, and he may have started out genuinely swayed by his father before backing down. You are ignoring the subtleties of Driver's acting, or the fact Kylo didn't even start the conversation, when you insist he planned the whole thing out.

> If Kylo wanted to, he could have avoided meeting Han, he could have gone out of his way, and when Han approached him, he could have force-pushed him far back and keep distance.

Oh sure, there are ways Kylo could have pushed Han away at the end. He didn't, because he'd decided to kill him at that point. But at the beginning, he could have let him talk because he wanted to hear what he had to say.

Can you at least comment on my revised draft, or do you feel that the trope shouldn't be there at all. Let me repost it in case it got lost in my Wall of Text:

• Manipulative Bastard:For all his impulsive and reckless nature, Kylo Ren does prove able to prey on people's weaknesses, not because of any guile but because of his own real divided nature, which makes him unpredictable enough to make others drop their guard around him. He uses his own twisted version of his break with Luke (which he may believe) to drive a wedge between Rey and her master. He preyed on Snoke's vanity and ego, to get him to drop his guard to usurp him, and he also pushes Rey's buttons about her Changeling Fantasy to make her join him, which she sees through and rejects. Even in The Force Awakens, after initially seeming to respond to Han's offer of guidance, Kylo suckers him in close so as to kill him.

I am wondering why this is shoehorned. Kylo has manipulated people in The last Jedi, you said Snoke, Johnson said he manipulated Rey even when he was being sincere. People who manipulate use all kinds of tactics, and are even able to use their personality weaknesses as strengths, such as Kylo using his unstable personality which makes him unpredictable as his main tactic when dealing with both Jedi and the First Order. Kylo is a pretty unique character, so he has qualities that differentiate him from the usual understanding of the trope. His main character trait is his unpredictability, his audacity, and his ability to grab initiative with amazing speed. Some of that are traits that Han Solo had, albeit he used that for good rather than evil unlike his son.

You guys are going in circles....

PlayingWith.Manipulative Bastard, under Subverted: "Bob wasn't trying to manipulate Alice. He genuinely feels that way."

That's Kylo Ren in a nutshell. His actions make him look like a manipulative person, but he honestly believes that he's doing the right thing.

Yeah, calling him a Manipulative Bastard sort of misses the actual definition of the trope. Like, he is literally manipulating people in the sense that he is influencing their actions and feelings. But the definition of the trope is much more than that.

His actions with Rey are the opposite of being a Manipulative Bastard because he genuinely thinks that showing her the truth of the world will bring her to his side. He's trying to convince her, not manipulate her.

I feel it shouldn't be there at all.

- As our heavy debate on TFA's Han incident shows, what Kylo thinks and is motivated by in that scene is up to interpretation by Alternative Character Interpretation, and thus shouldn't be listed as a definite example of a trope.

- Snoke was Flaw Exploitation, because he knew Snoke was too proud to keep his guard up around him, and a plan that he came up with on the spot. Manipulation would have been stroking Snoke's ego to get him to lower his guard, or having at least a plan in mind.

- Kylo doesn't "may" believe what happened with Luke, and it's not a "twisted version"; it's a "Rashomon"-Style retelling of what he experienced. He thinks Luke is lying to her (which he is, though the story is more complicated then either of their versions) and wants her to realize that—which is different than trying to drive a wedge between her and Luke.

- Johnson has said that from Kylo's perspective, he's "telling it honestly", and that "as unhealthy, and as much, that is you know, um awful about the way that he's trying...it is manipulative...um, from his point of view, it’s a very naked, open emotional appeal." He's saying that we should and do know it's manipulative, but Kylo doesn't and doesn't think of it that way. An accident does not a Manipulative Bastard make.

You say Kylo uses his unstable personality to be unpredictable, but he's not using it, that's just how he really is. He's too unstable to be a charismatic manipulator; he doesn't plan, he doesn't sit back and let things unfold, he doesn't do the playing off emotions shtick, and he is a terrible speaker. Being skilled at grabbing initiative makes him good at the Indy Ploy, like his father, but that doesn't make him skilled at manipulating people. His primary weapon, besides unpredictability, is his sheer strength with the Force. A manipulator wins by setting up a board to go the way they want—Kylo wins by flipping the board.

To Round Robin, then I should alter it and make Kylo a subversion and inversion instead? There are parts where he is really manipulative, and parts where he isn't. As Rian Johnson points out in the interview. He's honest with Rey but also deceptive at the same time.

To Larkmarn, if Kylo doesn't fit Manipulative Bastard but shows some skill for manipulation as you mention, which trope would that work.

If Manipulative Bastard is to be re-added (of which I'm still not entirely convinced, given this Wall of Text argument), it should definitely be a subversion and not an inversion (which is Extreme Doormat), much less Played Straight. Something like:

• Subverted. Even though he attains the position of Supreme Leader, which effectively makes him Palpatine's successor, Kylo Ren is too short-tempered and emotionally unstable to coldly manipulate people and events like his predecessors did. His interactions with Rey in The Last Jedi further cement this; while he could have intentionally used their Force Bond to twist her to the Dark Side, he instead finds himself empathizing with and exposing his insecurities to her when he sincerely (but insensitively) asks her to rule the galaxy with him.

Just a rough draft.

I'm leaving Ren's killing of Han out since, as Apocrypha said, it falls squarely under Alternative Character Interpretation. I'm also leaving out the part about Ren "twisting the truth to drive a wedge between Rey and Luke" because, again as Apocrypha noted, it's a case of "Rashomon"-Style; Luke told Rey a lie, and Ren is telling her the truth (as he remembers it). Lastly, the killing of Luke's apprentices is out since there's nothing manipulative about that incident; that's just a violent reaction to Luke's actions.

Since this is Wall of Text and no consensus is formed, I think it's best to call it quits, and I will withdraw this. I apologize for the time this took for everyone. I am not crazy about that draft even if it is more correct and I don't think it's worth going over anymore about this.

"...Kylo Ren being a rich kid...": First of all, you wrote "entitled rich kid", which is Flame Bait, not to mention inaccurate. From what we know so far, young Ben Solo was just a troubled kid before turning to the dark side.

Anakin being born a slave vs Ben being born in a privileged family: That much is true. Also true is that while both were groomed for greatness, Anakin turned to the dark side out of fear for Padme and ambition whereas Ben turned after Luke tried to kill him. So, nature vs nurture is in full effect here. IMO, if you want to make the comparison between them, you should tone down the Anakin-love and Kylo-hate.

As for comparing Kylo Ren to Palpatine.... Kylo Ren became Supreme Leader via a spur-of-the-moment plan incited by being asked to kill someone he cared about. Palpatine became Emperor after decades-long meticulous planning and cold machinations. Kylo is Hot-Blooded, Palpatine is The Chessmaster. Kylo shows affection for several people (Han, Leia, Rey), while Palpatine cares only for himself. In short, the comparison falls short.

Vader always being pretty blunt: not true. After he reveals his true identity to Luke, he keeps playing the "my son" card to get Luke to join the dark side. That is manipulation right there.

>From what we know so far, young Ben Solo was just a troubled kid before turning to the dark side.

The two films haven't mentioned anything like that IIRC. He did have a loving home in some amount of comfort since his parents were high-level senior figures in the Post-ROTJ government and his Uncle was the great hero of his generation. Leia mentions that he Used to Be a Sweet Kid at some point. In The Last Jedi when Luke talks about how he initially took Ben Solo in because of his fixation with "My nephew...with that mighty Skywalker blood" does suggest that privilege was a big part of who he was.

And you can be a troubled kid, and a rich kid at the same time, that happens a lot in real life and in fiction. Maybe entitled is pushing it, but again Luke more or less seemed to nominate him as his successor based on his lineage, so it certainly seemed fitting, but I will withdraw that.

> IMO, if you want to make the comparison between them, you should tone down the Anakin-love and Kylo-hate.

Okay.

>As for comparing Kylo Ren to Palpatine.... Kylo Ren became Supreme Leader via a spur-of-the-moment plan

Considering that Kylo Ren had to mentally shield himself from Snoke's telepathy, and as per Word of God, was trying to manipulate Rey in that post-Throne Room conversation, I don't think it was spur-of-the-moment. His extended conversations via Force Skype with Rey was definitely intended to bring her over to Snoke. And Kylo did manipulate Han Solo in The Force Awakens, bringing him close and preying on his guilt before he sucker-punched his old man.

>Kylo shows affection for several people (Han, Leia, Rey), while Palpatine cares only for himself.

Kylo's big internal struggle is putting aside his personal feelings for commitment to the Dark Side. So I don't think him being affectionate is a deal-breaker at all. And I did say that he and Palpatine are pretty different. Kylo being more hands-on than Palps. But as the new Emperor of the Galaxy, and the overall Big Bad of the Sequel Trilogy, and the man who masterminded an entire Jedi Kylo Purge by himself (Vader in Order 66 was just following Sidious' orders, just like Clones across the galaxy), Ren is definitely Darth Sidious' successor far more than Vader's.

> "My nephew...with that mighty Skywalker blood"

IDK, personally I'm reading it as a comment to Ben's potential with the Force, not as a sign that he's, ie, royalty. Either way, saying that someone turned bad because they were raised in a privileged environment is really dicey. I believe ROCEJ applies here above any personal opinions.

Your exact words about Kylo Ren being a manipulator akin to Palpatine were:

• He ultimately proves to differ in that he has more in common with Palpatine, being a cunning manipulator who can coldly play on people's emotions, attacking both the Jedi and his former allies among the First Order.

I suppose you could call his treatment of Han and Rey manipulation, but really it's just Han and Rey trying to convince Kylo that he's on the wrong side, only for Kylo to turn them down. Violently, in Han's case. And feeling guilty afterwards. It's not exactly cold, ruthless Palpatine.

> I don't think him being affectionate is a deal-breaker at all.

It's a redeeming quality Palpatine didn't have. And, again, Kylo's Jedi temple massacre (which we've only heard about, btw, not actually seen on-screen, so we don't know exactly what happened) was action-reaction and had a "motive": destroying Luke's home. Order 66 was a Jedi purge, planned at least one decade beforehand and executed with ruthless efficiency. They aren't exactly on the same caliber.

In short, Kylo doesn't fit the 'cold, cunning manipulator' criteria because he actually has people he cares about and feels guilt for hurting them (not that this convinced him to go back to the light). Attacking the Jedi is justified from his point of view. And as for attacking the First Order... Killing Snoke's guards was self defense, and hurting Hux is Kylo taking petty vengeance on a person who used to look down on him.

>Either way, saying that someone turned bad because they were raised in a privileged environment is really dicey

I agree. I certainly didn't mean to imply that. I did want to do it, because I don't think people get that Kylo Ren is actually pretty different in a lot of respects from Prequel Anakin and Vader.

> It's not exactly cold, ruthless Palpatine.

Similarities don't have to be exact. Kylo Ren doesn't resemble Palpatine completely but he is very similar to him. Just like he is similar to Vader but quite different in many respects.

> And, again, Kylo's Jedi temple massacre (which we've only heard about, btw, not actually seen on-screen,

Well until we find out more from the movies we can go by what we have, and alter and remove later. For all we know, we might never actually see that scene. According to Luke, Ren and his supporters within the temple massacred the others and burned down the place. Given he was connected to the Force at the time, I don't think Luke made an error there.

>Order 66 was a Jedi purge, planned at least one decade beforehand and executed with ruthless efficiency.

Not sure about that i.e. Ren's purge being less efficient. Palpatine's purge missed Yoda and Obi-Wan, and it also led to Anakin being crippled and as per Word of God, less powerful than he would have been, and of course the loss of Anakin's force-sensitive children. Those mistakes ultimately led to his downfall. Ren's purge totally wiped out the Jedi for good, shattered Luke's morale worse than even Vader ever did, and Ren was a key part for the First Order rising from The Remnant to a real challenge to the Republic. Whatever downfall Kylo has in store, it's not going to be because of any spot he missed on that day. Luke survived sure, but he would have died in exile had Rey not found him. And Rey becoming a Jedi novice is entirely down to Finn's defection (down to Phasma and Hux's mistakes in other words in their Storm Trooper programming).

>In short, Kylo doesn't fit the 'cold, cunning manipulator' criteria because he actually has people

Not entirely but he does have a cold and cunning manipulative edge. I mean that coup over Snoke is a real boss move, and worthy of the man who shanked Darth Plagueis. And Rian Johnson himself said that Kylo was trying to manipulate Rey, and that he is quite cunning. And you know, his cunning and improvisatory gambits are something he shares with Han Solo too.

Fact is Kylo is a multi-faceted character. On one hand he's a whiny, emotional nervous wreck, and on the other hand he's a cunning and pretty manipulative scheming guy. A character can be both. I think we should put both his facets. This page puts the whiny side, I think you should also have the other side to him too. Side by side.

> On one hand he's a whiny, emotional nervous wreck, and on the other hand he's a cunning and pretty manipulative scheming guy.

Now that I wholeheartedly agree with. He can be cunning and manipulative when he's calm and focused, but most of the time he's too angry to be a real threat to a skilled Chessmaster.

If I may offer a suggestion based on that: Kylo Ren outgambitting Snoke shows that he could have been a threat akin to Palpatine if he weren't so emotionally unstable due to his various personal hangups (Parental Abandonment, Corruption of a Minor, I Just Want to Be Loved, you know, all the more humanizing qualities that Palpatine lacks).

On a side note: I love Palpatine precisely because he's a cold, ruthless Card-Carrying Villain. Just putting it out there.

Palpatine is amazing.

Anyway, I will put the Palpatine stuff under Contrasting Sequel Antagonist, since he fits there as the overarching villain of the sequel trilogy, i.e. the guy who cripples Finn, nearly kills Poe Dameron, tortures Rey and awakens her power, and usurps his boss, and exiles Luke.

I will add his similarities and differences to Anakin and add his improvisatory tendency with Han Solo, who also improvises his way out of jams and so on. I will also emphasize his manipulative tendencies.

I agree that the trope should be removed.

They would have to be opposites in an any significant way.

Then how about an expy?

Kylo would have be intentionally and directly based on Dooku to qualify.