- Averted for the Nameless King. If the Faraam armor set from Dark Souls 2 indeed references the Nameless King as it's "war god", then his name is actually "Faraam".
This is a far-fetched theory with no evidence beside the appellation of war god, in a setting filled to the brim with ancient gods that fought a deadly war against dragons; in a setting where time is convoluted and gave rise to separate pantheons like Faraam and Nahr Alma.
I think you're scratching the bottom of the barrel at this point. The Nameless King as Gwyn's firstborn has solid evidence in contrast (leitmotif, use of lightning powers, being Ornstein's mentor, riding a dragon despite being a god).
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain Hide / Show Replies
The Faraam set description in Dark Souls 2 states that it's named after a god of war, Gwyn's Firstborn was the god of war. The helmet depicts someone fighting a dragon, Gwyn's Firstborn was part of his father's war on dragons and the greatest of the Dragonslayers, before he turned against Gwyn. It was used by a order of "Lion Knights". The most famous knight with a Lion motif is Ornstien, who was trained by and served under Gwyn's Firstborn. The Lion Knights also were known for their two-handed swords, which were the preferred weapon of Gwyn, and which the Nameless King based his weapon on, before modifying it into the swordspear. The set can only be referencing the Firstborn. Everything about the armor comes back around to the Firstborn.
Edited by RemiV
I need more input that just you to add it back, otherwise it's an Edit War that could have been avoided.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Here. I got the screenshots and explained my reasoning with each image.
Edited by RemiV
From the forum:
- I definitely don't buy it. The only piece of evidence is that he's called a god of war, but it's entirely possibly he's the same as Evlana and just a human called a god. And he's not even the only war god - Nahr Alma is one too.Similarly, Faraam in DS 3 is referred to as a god of war, not the.
Except that: he was also a dragon slayer, is associated with large swords (and spears) and well as lion themed knights, and the faraam set resembles his and Gwyn's outfits. If you want only concrete proof, then remove all mentions of him being Gwyn's firstborn. Their outfits aren't 100% the same. Also the Firstborn is depicted wielding a cross spear, not a swordspear. His hair is shorter and his statues doesn't have a crown. SO yeah. He isnt the Firstborn. Its not confirmed. Remove it.
Dark Souls isnt big on meaningless coincidences when it comes to lore.
God of War, Dragonslayer, Lion Knight(s), BFS, Outfits are similar.
Either way. I think I'm done with this website. Dark Souls isnt big on super "concrete" evidence in any of its lore, but that doesn't matter. You have made up your mind and no matter what I say you probably wont change it.
Edited by RemiV
This site works on a consensus when it comes to these entries. If you cannot get everyone to agree on one point, it's best that you lay off and don't be adamant about it.
Right now, you're on hot waters by stating your intention to not back down and go against other editors.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
"He was succeeded by his children: his firstborn; the banished God of War who lost his status as a deity, his daughter Gwynevere; the Queen of Sunlight, and his lastborn Gwyndolin; his "repulsive [and] frail" son who Gwyn raised as a daughter due to his affinity for the moon." So after the firstborn was banished he was striped of his godhood. http://darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/Nameless+King
shows theories supporting the one here.
From the subreddit:
[–]Lito_Suave [score hidden] 16 minutes ago Dark souls is never going to outright tell us a lot of things. We have to use logic to bridge different aspects together, and there is just way too much evidence of NK being Faraam to be a coincidence.
The connection between Faraam and Gwyn's firstborn is far too tenuous for them to be the same person. The Nameless King has a much stronger case, from the obvious similarities in appearance to Gwyn, to the similar powers, and most notably, the fact that he doesn't have a name. Gwyn's firstborn's name was stricken from history; the fact that we know Faraam's name is a huge hole in the theory.
The consensus here seems to have moved towards Faraam =/= Nameless King.
And it's come to my attention that RemiV is rage-quitting this discussion and adding the example back.
Edited by AnoBakaDesu "They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Two in opposition is not a consensus against the information. And it seems less that he rage quit, and more that he was gagged to prevent him from responding to this discussion anymore. So now we know how mods work on this site. Can't beat 'em? Gag 'em.
From his post in imgur. top comments are like the following:
"davo723 via Android 233 pts1 day I could have sworn this was already known."
"Raylo Ken via Android 8 pts1 day I read something similar on reddit a few months back. Dark Souls gets me soul movin so good on ya, op."
"Chloe Price 9 pts1 day This has been around for at least two months after DS 3 was released. Reply
Collapse veritasgear1 pt1 day Exactly what I said.
Collapse Remi V 43 OP 1 pt1 day Him being Faraam?
Collapse veritasgear1 pt1 day Yes...."
Here is someone else who come up with the "Faraam" connection:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkSouls2/comments/1vaxhn/spoiler_is_faraam_the_firstborn
and another
https://www.reddit.com/r/darksouls3/comments/4h4q96/theory_the_nameless_king_may_not_live_up_to_his/
So I would say the consensus is in support for the information.
Edited by TheNuclearSoldier
No, RemiV definitely stated his intent to quit this discussion and has now to answer for his stubborn behaviour in the suspended thread. I suggest you do not try to taunt the moderators over this.
Not only did that reddit post not even gather much traction, you can even see differing opinion in the comments section.
We have one choice here, which is to limit theories according to what we know on the lore. Going anything beyond that becomes Epileptic Trees, and we already have the YMMV page for that.
All that matters to me is that the writeup must be clear, consise and non-arguable, which RemiV did not by adding "Averted if you consider [...]". Examples Are Not Arguable. Period.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
It's Dark Souls. Most points are arguable. If they cant be argued, then we need to remove entries like "All-Powerful Bystander" on the Nameless King. It says he was "possibly" just standing by during the entire age of fire. Or "Antagonistic Offspring" as its only "implied".
Back on Faraam, even Vaati Vidya support this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP9bliNKbnc&feature=youtu.be&t=2m46s
You have no edits or forum history to your name. I might have to have a mod check if you're not RemiV ban evading, given you share the same white-and-black mentality on these entries.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
White-and-black mentality? You mean like saying there is a consensus against something, despite being shown more evidence and people that support it?
I do believe that Faraam, Nameless King, and Gwyns first born are the same person. Dark souls has always been a series about having a tied together narrative without explicitly telling the player. and since Farram has no other implication to the story, it would be an odd detail to add if it didn't have bigger meaning. Farrams armour set was even used for the cover art, not just the basic knight set from the other games, but a specific set with specific lore. Many other people have looked at this theory and it is widely believed.
TheNuclearSoldier has been found to be a sock of RemiV. There are better ways to discuss this than making multiple accounts at once and creating the false impression that you have a consensus.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
There is not any direct evidence to say he is Faraam. Leave it as it is now, maybe note a Suspiciously Similar type deal or a Continuity Nod, but treat these two as separate beings. The evidence saying he is Faraam is as baseless as someone saying "VELKA IS THE PYGMY", which is a silly argument that got tossed around places.
Muramasa got.
I'd rather reword entries based on the clearest conjectures, and the shroudier theories in Shrouded In Mystery.
The Nameless King being Gwyn's firstborn is clear-cut and has little room for proving otherwise. Him being Faraam/Sen is a conjecture made from various parts that hardly interconnect.
- "Faraam is the god of war worshipped by Forossan warriors, who are lion warriors. Ornstein has a lion motif. Ergo, Faraam is the Nameless King" Makes no sense since there are multiple war gods, one goddesss in DS 2 was actually a mortal human, and just because Ornstein based his helmet around a lion's doesn't mean he himself is a lion. Forossa is also home to the Ivory King and his Loyce Knights, for reference.
- "The Sen theory comes from Sen's Fortress with the placement of Silver Knight weapons and presence of Snakemen, who also show up in the Dragon Peak. Ergo, Nameless King = Sen"
Like I said, this is really scratching the bottom of the barrel at this point, and no amount of popular Youtubers can dictate what has never been there in the first place.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
I believe it's possible that it may have been intended for Faraam to be the name and identity of Gwyn's Firstborn when Dark Souls II was being made. However, Dark Souls II was made by a different director than Dark Souls I. The director for Dark Souls I returned to direct Dark Souls III, however, and in III the description for the Faraam set changed Faraam from the god of war to a god of war. Being that this is the same game that introduced the Nameless King, and given how unusually clear it is that the Nameless King is meant to be Gwyn's Firstborn (considering how vague everything tends to be in Dark Souls), that looks to me like a deliberate attempt to Joss the the Faraam = Gwyn's Firstborn theory.
Edited by shigmiya64
Moodswing King
Character Pages and Spoiler Tags - There's a bit of tug and war going on with the spoiler tags on the character pages, even though we've got a "Unmarked spoilers ahead" warning in place on all of them. I keep seeing tropers putting them on, and then other tropers come to take the spoilers off. Are we supposed to remove all the tags, or keep having swiss cheese entries?
Always late for everything.
Gas Mask Mook
Dragonslayer Armour - I'd say it's a huge stretch to link it to Ornstein. The page currently claims that the soul obtained hints at the armour being Ornstein's, but it really doesn't, nor do the other related items. The armour is completely different from Ornstein's set, which we can actually find elsewhere, the weapons and moveset are different, etc. The armour probably belonged to a different dragonslayer, since there must have been quite a few of them during Gwyn's war with the dragons.
Edited by Kodaemon Hide / Show Replies
That is a pretty sound argument. Since the Dragonslayer Armour is just one entry and isolated from the other folders, this can be easily edited.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
So if anyone is wondering why I made two edit clarifications, with one of them cutting off halfway through, it's because I'm using a tablet and accidentally hit the save button mid-type. Sorry about that.