It's the central Aesop of the season finale because it's the central Aesop of the entire third season, with multiple episodes of season 3 (and some in season 2, if I remember right) that say more or less the same thing, but blatantly contradict it. Not to mention that "choosing your own destiny" is literally the moral they end the episode on. I'm putting it back.
Well, since the topic has apparently come up again, and there have been edit exchanges, I guess I'll pick this up.
I need more tangible examples of this being the theme and aesop. I need actual quotes from the episode, or other episodes, and instances that are meant to teach that "you will be unhappy if you let something tell you what your destiny should be instead of finding it yourself." I don't recall anything explicit.
Removed the example per [[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13543987200A54420100&page=536#comment-13391 two]] [[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15709904890A32074300&page=5#comment-101 cleanups]], not an intentional Aesop. The intended one is stated in "A True, True Friend" is about helping friends in need and find their true self.
Can't be broken if not the Aesop to break.
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught
I removed some more of these, here's the reason:
- "One Bad Seed" manages to have two:
- Firstly it has the Cutie Mark Crusaders being bullied by Apple Bloom's cousin Babs, and then learning a lesson about how bullying is wrong, because by retaliating against Babs, they had become bullies themselves. The lesson falls apart because Babs turned to bullying because she was bullied herself just like the CMC, but for her, it's a Freudian Excuse and not actual wrongdoing (which means it's a cry for help when someone victimizes people who are weaker than themselves, but it's morally wrong to fight back against someone who directly abuses you). Added to this is the fact that she abuses Apple Bloom in their own home, so at least some of the bullying Babs was doing had nothing to do with protecting herself from being bullied her peers.
- "One Bad Seed" manages to have two:
I'm not sure I can even follow this reasoning. Just because there's a Freudian Excuse doesn't mean something is morally right. Neither does pointing out that you shouldn't punish the perpetrator — even if you think kids should play judge, jury and executioner to each other, that's not a universal assumption. Rather, with both Babs and the CMC we're shown that they're doing it for some perceived reason, a different kind of one but showing they're not doing it because they're Evil, so how does that go against the moral that they were becoming just like her?
- Secondly, the episode repeatedly claims that if you're being bullied you should tell someone and makes it clear everything would have been averted if the CMC did. Then it ends with Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon bullying the CMC right in front of Applejack, who does nothing, and Babs Seed chasing them away through intimidation, making the lesson come off as "if you're being bullied, make friends with a toughguy who will defend you".
What Babs does in that scene is to threaten to tell their parents, and it totally works, to the point of confirming the aesop in a naïvely strong way.
Edited by VVK Hide / Show Replies
I agree with you on the first point, but the latter aesop is still broken in the following ways:
- First, Applejack still does nothing, and Babs is the one who has to handle the situation. When you're trying to teach that an adult can handle the situation better, this is a huge flaw.
- Babs does admittedly threaten to tell their mothers, but she never carries out said threat, she was in no position to do so because she was leaving town, and as "Crusaders of the Lost Mark" reveals, telling Diamond Tiara's mother wouldn't have done any good, as her mother is the one who taught her to despise and mock blank flanks in the first place. So telling her mother wasn't even a viable option.
- Babs does scare them off through intimidation, causing them to fall into mud. While it isn't clear whether the latter result was intentional or not (Babs' intimidating glance indicates that it may have been), this is still a huge flaw when you are supposed to tell an adult and not retaliate.
Most of that just gives the message that telling parents is so effective that it works even when it shouldn't. (Actually it doesn't really even do that because the reasons it wouldn't work are Fridge Logic, not immediately apparent.) It doesn't make it so that it doesn't work.
Applejack not acting is kind of a moderate flaw, not huge. Babs just talks first; also, this too is kind of overemphasizing the part about telling your elders, because the idea of telling is shown as being more powerful than their hearing it first hand.
All that leaves is the "falling into mud, maybe not intentionally" part, which is not enough to cancel the point.
Overall, I'd say it's forcefully making the point that it's supposed to make — with small flaws if you think about it too hard. It's not saying the opposite.
Oh well, I'll leave it there but write it to take these points better into account.
- A specific episode has Dexter finding an old part of his lab; after finding it, the robots inhabiting that part of the lab turn against him. Dee Dee then comes in to help... that is, she comes in and finds one Dex's first inventions, and when he dismisses it in favor of saving his own butt, she tells him that he cares to much about progress to pay attention to his past creations... But science is about making progress; that's why people in scientific fields invent and discover new things. Doubles as a meta-level Family-Unfriendly Aesop, since it's saying that science isn't about progression and moving forward when that's the main objective.
I don't see how the aesop is broken in the narrative.
These items are being edit warred over. I've messaged the editors to come here:
- My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic has a few rather infamous examples:
- In the episode "Swarm of the Century," Pinkie's seemingly pointless quest for musical instruments turns out to be the perfect way to get rid of the town's parasprite infestation, and things would have gone a lot smoother if everyone had just helped her rather than wasting time on other methods, with the intended lesson that you should listen to your friends' ideas, even if they may not make complete sense to you. Except that Pinkie hardly makes any attempt to explain what she's doing; she mostly just demands everyone help her on a mission that doesn't seem to make sense at all, and expects them to go along with it just because she says so. Plus, one of those other methods almost works until Pinkie herself screws it up. So the message becomes more about the importance of explaining yourself properly.
- In the generally infamous "The Mysterious Mare Do Well", the moral imparted by the Mane 6 on Rainbow Dash at the end of the episode is that humility and humbleness is necessary in the wake of great success. Except for the fact that each of the other ponies involved in the plan complimented their own contribution to Mare Do Well in front of Rainbow Dash. Not to mention the fact that, when it comes right down to it, it took five other ponies working as a team to outdo Rainbow Dash at her heroics, and for a few of their stunts, only barely beat her to the punch. That's pretty damn impressive, actually.
- "A Friend In Deed" aims to teach that you can't force someone to be your friend, and that if someone doesn't want you hanging around them all the time, you should give them their space, as illustrated by Pinkie trying to make Cranky be her friend by constantly badgering him. The problem is that in the end she succeeds not by acknowledging his desire that she stop following him everywhere, but by hanging around him long enough that she figures out a way to convince him to like her. She never actually leaves him alone until after she gets what she wants.
- The most contentious by far seems to be emerging via the Season 3 finale. The episode was about the characters' cutie marks getting switched by accident, and how you will be unhappy if you let something tell you what your destiny should be instead of finding it yourself. That's all well and good, except that Princess Celestia rewards Twilight Sparkle by unilaterally transforming her into an alicorn and making her into a princess, all while singing about how this had been her plan for Twilight since she was a child.. The episode pairs this with a message about finding your own destiny instead of having one handed to you. The writers have stated that the episode is actually part one of an arc that won't be resolved until next season, so it's unknown whether or not it will be addressed later.
- All that stuff about teamwork, accepting your friends for who they are, and sharing special bonds sounds a little hollow with the reveal that Celestia had an ulterior motive in urging Twilight to make friends all along with an end-goal of changing her into an alicorn, and the Element of Magic (at least, in the movie) exists independently of the other five.
- The reveal also comes with a bit of Fridge Logic, namely that Celestia gave the other five ponies Twilight's friendship-lesson assignments after Twilight had a breakdown over being late with one of them. Those lessons were the basis for Twilight's coronation as a princess; in other words, they were unwittingly doing Twilight's school work for her. Celestia never tells anyone but Twilight about any of it, although the next-season resolution may change that.
- Whether that was was the episode's Aesop is debatable since there's no letter to Celestia stating it outright. As the song "A true, true friend" might imply, the Aesop could be that those close to you will help you find your true place in life. Since Twilight uses the bonds shared between them to make her friends remember who they are and then uses the power of Friendship to fuel her ascension, it would play the Aesop entirely straight.
- The reveal also comes with a bit of Fridge Logic, namely that Celestia gave the other five ponies Twilight's friendship-lesson assignments after Twilight had a breakdown over being late with one of them. Those lessons were the basis for Twilight's coronation as a princess; in other words, they were unwittingly doing Twilight's school work for her. Celestia never tells anyone but Twilight about any of it, although the next-season resolution may change that.
- All that stuff about teamwork, accepting your friends for who they are, and sharing special bonds sounds a little hollow with the reveal that Celestia had an ulterior motive in urging Twilight to make friends all along with an end-goal of changing her into an alicorn, and the Element of Magic (at least, in the movie) exists independently of the other five.
- The season four opening episode has Twilight learning that with a royal title Comes Great Responsibility, when she's told to stay behind while her friends go off to save the day, with Applejack explaining that if they can't get the others back, Twilight is the only ruler Equestria has left and is too important to risk on a dangerous mission... but it turns out that Twilight is the only one who can save the day after all.
I keep re-adding these because whoever keeps deleting them cites the reason as being "inaccurate claims". None of these are inaccurate! They describe the events that actually happen in the show! I know a lot of people are very fond of this show (I'm one of them, in fact), and some fans are desperate to protect it from all criticism, but that's no reason to erase the observations of others. This is not a Your Mileage May Vary trope, and all the examples listed cite the moral lesson presented in the show and the canon events that break them. There is no reason to delete any of them.
Added Note: Even the justifying edit about how "there was no letter so we don't know if that was the moral" is pretty flimsy because the entire show centers on friendship, and since the lessons are explicitly confirmed as a cumulative exercise, the lapses present in any given episode are and should be considered as conflicting with Aesops in the show as a whole, not just the episode in which they occur. Twilight using the power of friendship/magic to fuel her ascension breaks the show's Aesops because she does it behind their backs and one of the literal elements that friendship is built on is honesty.
Edited by 96.38.69.61
Seeing as no one's come forward to argue the points above, I rewrote the examples to use as neutral, concise language as I am capable of using, and put them back up.
While they did happen in the show, I know for a FACT that, except for the Mare-Do-Well one, they are NOT broken aesops. The "Swarm Of The Century" one was merely mildly clueless, and the other ones scream YMMV vibes. I'm sorry if it rubs you the wrong way, but you're just gonna have to accept that.
What? A broken Aesop is an aesop broken by the events of the show. You can't "know for a FACT" that the Aesops aren't broken when show itself breaks its own moral messages!
If you know for a FACT that the Aesops aren't broken, where is your proof? Where are your sources? Because mine is the show, and where Aesops are concerned, Word of God determines what the message is, not whether the message remains intact after the audience views it.
I'm putting them back up until you can show clearly that you have some reason to remove them other than because you say so.
Maybe I'm wrong here, and maybe we need a mod to clear this up, but TV Tropes is a place for everyone to use, and examples should not be removed unless there is no way to edit them to be correct.
Here's my take on them:
- Swarm of the Century: There is an issue with how the message was delivered, but I don't think it qualifies as this trope. A Broken Aesop requires that the events of the episode are resolved by breaking the moral, which I don't think is the case. The Aesop is "You should listen to your friends" and the events of the episode bears that out: if they would have listened to Pinkie they would have saved a lot of trouble. Whether or not Pinkie sucked at communicating it doesn't break the "listen to your friends" aesop. I think this example would fit better under Accidental Aesop, the Accidental Aesop being "you should make an effort to communicate". The fact that there's a secondary aesop that doesn't get addressed doesn't in any way negate the stated message.
- MMDW: This one is pretty much valid.
- A Friend In Deed: I'd say this is valid as well. The aesop is "you can't badger people into being friends with you", yet that's exactly what Pinkie does.
- The S3 finale is a weird one. I can see where people are coming from, but I think a lot of it is mitigated by the fact that a previous episode (Cutie Mark Chronicles) shows that Twilight wants to be like Celestia, and in the show itself her only issue with growing wings is that it might result in having to leave her friends. I'd personally say trim it down to one bullet with a YMMV pothole somewhere.
- S4. Same as S3 basically; I interpreted the lesson as being more that "all six of us need to stick together" due to the fact that both Twilight on her own and the other five by themselves failed. It was less about reiterating Twilight's specific importance and more that the group can't split itself. The other thing is that AJ's whole "she needs to be kept safe because she's the princess" was explicitly wrong in-universe. That can't be a broken aesop because the entire point of the episode was that all of them, Twilight included, needed to be present and that Twilight should still be one of the group despite being a princess. There are still shades of this trope, but I think the example needs to be rewritten into something like "The episode tries to show that the ponies can only accomplish their goals together, but Twilight contributes as much to the effort as the rest of the cast combined" or something.
The short version:
- Swarm: Move the example to Accidental Aesop (I don't think the situation fits this trope)
- MMDW: leave
- AFID: leave
- Magical Mystery Cure: Leave, but rewrite to be less complainy
- Princess Twilight Sparkle: Leave, but rewrite to be less complainy
Also, I feel compelled to point out that saying "Twilight using the power of friendship/magic to fuel her ascension breaks the show's Aesops because she does it behind their backs and one of the literal elements that friendship is built on is honesty." doesn't really fit the events of the show. She didn't go behind anyone's back; she didn't even know it was going to happen, so saying that she somehow betrayed her friends' trust in ascending doesn't make sense. None of her friends are any worse off for it, and she clearly doesn't consider them any less important.
Edited by 68.193.167.242 Reaction Image Repository
The only one I would take issue with really is the one about "Twilight's friends unwittingly doing her schoolwork for her." At least with how it's presented on the main page. The copy/paste put here explains it a bit better, though. Can't really call it unwitting, since the ponies knew they were now doing what Twilight had been doing (i.e. they didn't know any more or less than Twilight herself).
The "Swarm Of The Century" one was merely mildly clueless, and the other ones scream YMMV vibes. I'm sorry if it rubs you the wrong way, but you're just gonna have to accept that.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this entire trope a YMMV?
Edited by 24.117.218.132
Actually, not. This trope is not ymmv. This trope is only "the plot contradicts their moral". NOTE: If the recap is correct, the moral of 'A Friend In Need` is not "you can't badger people into being friends with you", but yes "while some folks are as social and outgoing as her, others prefer to have some space to themselves now and then. Either way, she can be friends and make them smile.".
Edited by 200.187.116.13
Swarm of the Century would just be an accidental Aesop and nothing else, except the moral is "listen to your friends" and Pinkie didn't give anyone anything to actually listen to. She just gets annoyed, says she has to get a trombone, and leaves it at that. She clearly knows what parasprites are and the problems they cause, but she never says that. It's not that she says things that don't make sense, it's that she doesn't say anything relevant at all until long after the others are in the middle of trying to solve the problem. And when they call her on screwing that attempt up and she has their full attention, she complains instead of explaining. You can't fault someone for not listening when you don't talk, especially when you just plain don't answer when they stop and ask you directly what the problem is.
The season 3 finale has always bothered me because Twilight never tells the others after she ascends how they contributed to it. She didn't know what the Friendship Letters were for, but when she found out, she should have told them. Other people have compared Twilight's promotion to Princess as being like a grad student getting their degree, which I think is valid, but when a grad student gets other people to do their research for them and then takes sole credit for it, that's called plagiarism. Twilight is surprised to hear Celestia's reasoning, but once she does hear it, she doesn't share it. I'm not saying it's malicious, but it does undermine the importance of honesty for Twilight to find out that she's been unwittingly exploiting her friends and then not tell them about it... or to call out Celestia for it. I know the circumstances are mitigated because Celestia's in charge and she knows all about it, but the show focuses so heavily on the importance of friendship and the importance of honesty even in the face of ugly or uncomfortable truths, I think it counts.
With the Cranky episode, the lesson is that sometimes people want to be left alone, but since Pinkie doesn't leave Cranky alone until after she figures out how to solve his love life, the message in practice is more "Anyone who wants to be left alone must have a problem that needs to be fixed".
The Season 4 opening had the same problem; Twilight rejects her new responsibilities in order to continue sticking with her old ones and the old ones are centered primarily on herself (she uses the Elements alone this time, the other ponies don't even have to activate theirs), but the episode says that she'll stick with her friends even though her role has changed. But her role hasn't really changed at all. She doesn't have new responsibilities (at least, not any that can't be dropped immediately with no consequence), so the Aesop can't stand the way it's presented.
If she had said "I'm not going to let being a princess interfere with our friendship!" it would hold up just fine, but she pointedly acknowledges that things have changed for her, even though they really haven't.
Edited by 96.38.69.61
First off, the one for "Swarm Of The Century" doesn't apply because I've observed with absolute certainty that this aesop is actually kinda clueless because just because the episode goes more along the lines of learning to explain yourself properly, it doesn't make its intended moral any less relevant. Therefore, it becomes a Double Aesop, considering what occurred.
Secondly, the moral of "A Friend In Deed" does not explicitly come off as "you can't badger people into being friends with you". In light of what occurs, it's merely trial and error that helps make Cranky Doodle Pinkie Pie's friend. When you think about it hard enough, social trial and error is actually a very family-friendly philosophy in its own right.
Third, the way the events of the Season 3 finale and the Season 4 premiere are interpreted are actually very condescending at the very least. Why? Because it's never made explicitly clear that Celestia's intentions for Twilight to make friends were all part of some elaborate scheme. From what a lot of us have observed in "The Cutie Mark Chronicles", Twilight's destiny had already been found during her fillyhood. Furthermore, when Celestia said that it was time for Twilight to fulfill her destiny in "Magical Mystery Cure", it was completely different from finding it. In other words, Twilight becoming an alicorn princess was merely a contribution to her destiny, which is no more apparent than the possibility that Twilight did have interests in becoming a princess. Plus, the way some tropers on here interpret Twilight's friends' friendship reports as doing her schoolwork for her is just ridiculous, mainly because Celestia never made it explicitly so. Also, the events of the season 4 premiere did not make it explicit that Twilight was gonna give up her responsibilities as a princess. Finally, while Celestia did have Twilight make friends at the beginning so that she'd help turn Luna back to good, Celestia also had Twilight make friends to cure her of her relatively anti-social behavior. Fairly reasonable, if you ask me.
Edited by 68.62.125.213
I say that, except for the Mare Do Well entry, the "My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic" entries do not apply because when you think about it, there was nothing the characters necessarily did to break those morals. Therefore, they should be removed.
Edited by 68.62.125.213
This seems like a questionable example:
- The episode Flaming Moe's from the third season, Homer tells Moe about a recipe for a drink he created, and Moe starts selling it in his bar without giving credit to Homer as the creator and making a fortune selling the drinks, Homer becomes very angry with Moe for using his idea to become rich and not giving credit or compensation for it, but if you count the legal aspect of this, this is not that wrong, the law says you can't copyright/trademark/patent a food or drink, it's even said in the episode by Lionel Hutz, the message about that not giving credit to others is wrong is fine, but the money aspect the story explicitly said is ok.
- Also, Homer hates when Lionel Hutz says you can't own a drink, and logically you can guess food either, but being such a Big Eater and beer lover he is, he doesn't think that living in a world you can, could mean everytime you cook something, you have to give money to someone.
- Also, Homer could always give proof that he was the real creator by going on public and making the secret drink in front of everyone, but at the end, he just tells everyone the secret ingredient but never says he created the drink. (Lionel Hutz only says drink, but
- The episode Flaming Moe's from the third season, Homer tells Moe about a recipe for a drink he created, and Moe starts selling it in his bar without giving credit to Homer as the creator and making a fortune selling the drinks, Homer becomes very angry with Moe for using his idea to become rich and not giving credit or compensation for it, but if you count the legal aspect of this, this is not that wrong, the law says you can't copyright/trademark/patent a food or drink, it's even said in the episode by Lionel Hutz, the message about that not giving credit to others is wrong is fine, but the money aspect the story explicitly said is ok.
The moral is not that what Moe's doing is illegal, it's that what Moe's doing is unethical. Something can be legal and wrong.
MagBas
- "Games Ponies Play" has the team traveling to the Crystal Empire and setting up festivities to impress a games inspector so she'll decide to let the empire host the ponies' version of the Olympics. They end up getting the wrong person, while the actual inspector has a terrible time. At the end, the two meet and the pony mistaken for the inspector talks about how amazing the empire is. The inspector decides that the empire will host the games, because every other place she visited went out of their way to impress her, while she was told of how great the empire was from a regular pony. The problem is, the only reason the other pony has such a glowing impression of the empire is because she experienced all of the things they had been planning to do for the inspector, undercutting any message about being sincere.
This example is being edit warred. Please, discuss this here.
Edited by 200.187.118.2 Hide / Show Replies
MLP isn't a show where the episode don't have morals. The fact that anyone thinks the episode didn't have one is just proof of how badly written the episode was. When one character gives some big speech on how every other town put on airs except this one? Yeah, I think you can take that as a message.
Well, you don't edit war over it anyhow. And it was an edit war, yes.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Yes, I got the message the second time. Whether or not it was an edit war is no longer relevant. I posted my case on the discussion page as is expected. You don't need to keep browbeating me.
It's been nearly a week with no other responses, so I'm putting it back in. And I apologize for my earlier behavior. That was out of line.
Under My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, we currently have the following:
Then we get a bunch of reasons why it's broken. I'm skeptical, however, because I'm uncertain if this is actually the aesop. The switching of cutie marks seemed more like a unique, fantastic event that needed to be fixed, and the episode focuses more on true friends helping out friends in need. Thoughts?
Edit: Since there's been no response, I'm going to delete this whole entry for now.
Edited by Ninja857142 Hide / Show Replies