Need a bettter explanation, or a split: Lightning Bruiser

When you read the definition, you have the impression that a Lightning Bruiser is basically a fast Mighty Glacier. However, the list of examples is separated into two(three if you count the robot section) construction of character

_ entity that have a lot of health, are fast and can do a lot of damage (fast Mighty Glacier)

_entity that are very fast and can do a lot of damage, but have a very low health (Fragile Speedster + Glass Cannon basically)

Those two construction have nothing to do with each other : the first one is basically the definition of a Game-Breaker if he isn't Awesome, but Impractical(for instance, if, in a RTS, the cost of the unit is proportionnal to his efficiency), or if doing damage isn't what count the most(the other unit can heal, construct building...).

The second one is very common in videogame, and can be balanced without the need of one of these specific situations (this kind of character are generally either vulnerable to Mighty Glacier or Fragile Speedster)

Since the separation of the examples is already made, I suggest that a new page is made for the second series of example and make this second page a subtrope of Fragile Speedster and Glass Cannon). There is largely enough example for that.

edit removed mistake and red links

edited 5th Nov '10 4:37:05 PM by VioletOrange

The second one is something like Fast Cannon or something. It's not Lightning Bruiser at all. The description should make that clear.

Upon thinking about it. Being fast and being able to dish it out falls quite neatly into Fragile Speedster.

edited 5th Nov '10 4:07:41 PM by Deboss

Fight smart, not fair.

Most Fragile Speedsters are already Glass Cannons, because there's not much point in being fast and vulnerable if you can't actually accomplish anything with your speed. Just remove the bad examples.

edited 5th Nov '10 4:31:06 PM by Clarste

Three instance of pure Fragile Speedster

_ every scout unit in a RTS is a pure Fragile Speedster.

_FragileSpeedster can be good to eliminate the Glass Cannon, even without much firepower.

_Last but not least, thanks to hit and run tactic, you don't need to do a lot of damage to kill slow and powerful unit.

So I think that removing the second part of examples is kind of a waste

edit :mistake, mistake...

edited 5th Nov '10 4:48:18 PM by VioletOrange

It's possible to be any combination of Fragile Speedster and Glass Cannon if you want it to.

Fight smart, not fair.

I just check Fragile Speedster : it's only for build who sacrifices everything for speed (health and firepower), so there is definitely a void here.

Speaking of, how would we classify fast, tough characters who are short on offensive ability? Just as this unknown trope we're already discussing would be a combo of Fragile Speedster and Glass Cannon, this would be Stone Wall meets Fragile Speedster. They certainly exist - Heroman's Joey Jones, for instance.

What's precedent ever done for us?

I think I saw it in YKTTW under Lightning Tank. It might or might not have launched.

Fight smart, not fair.

Isn't Ranma something like this? His techniques are very speed-focused but he's by no means fragile.

I re-recheck the Fragile Speedster entry, and there is also a need of cleaning there : a significant portion of the example are firepower+ speed+ health- whereas the description is firepower- speed+ and health-

@ Iaculus,

I think that there is a lack for two thing :

_The first is your trope, even if I am not sure if there is a great number of build that relies on it : having a lot of health and being able to dodge seems a little redundant, but I may be wrong.

_The second is an index which recapitulate all the build, and which will be like this

_____________________________________

No strong point

The Mario

_____________________________________

One strong point

firepower- speed- and health+ => Stone Wall

firepower- speed+ and health- => Fragile Speedster

firepower+ speed- and health- => Glass Cannon

__________________________________________

Two strong points

firepower- speed+ and health+ => Iaculus's trope

firepower+ speed+ and health- => Fast Cannon ?

firepower+ speed- and health+ => Mighty Glacier

__________________________________________

Three strong points

Lightning Bruiser

edited 6th Nov '10 2:59:40 AM by VioletOrange

I don't like snowcloning Glass Cannon for the +Firepower and Speed trope. However I don't have any better ideas for it right now.

Who needs a signature, really?

I made a post about this in the trope talk forum if I remember right, a long time ago. I also mentioned that there should be two more tropes to accurately describe anyone who falls into the Speed + Defense and Attack + Speed catagories.

edited 6th Nov '10 8:50:14 AM by DRCEQ

If we follow with the idea of adding the lacking tropes, it will require a lot of displacement of example from Fragile Speedster and from Glass Cannon.

Considering the name, here are my proposals :

Fast, Lethal and Fragile as a replacement for Fast Cannon

Fast Stone Wall,or Fast Meat Shield, despite being snow clones of Stone Wall seems to be good names for the health and speed build

For the name of the index, Character Building Index is too approximative, A Fighting Character Is You isn't ideal, because it will overlaps with An Adventurer Is You. Maybe Strength, Speed and Health Characterization will do if coma are allowed in title, which I strongly doubt. That said, it should include the concept of characterization via strength, speed and health.

I'd be in favor of a soft split of Fragile Speedster along these lines:

• Machine Gun: This type of Fragile Speedster doesn't do much damage with his attacks, but makes up for it by being able to use them more rapidly, keeping up with (or surpassing) the DPS of his counterparts.
• Artillery: The Fragile Speedster meets the Glass Cannon. This Fragile Speedster packs a powerful punch, but goes down quickly to direct attack. This causes him to have to rely on range or hit-and-run tactics to overcome his weakness.

The "Artillery" version seems to meet the criteria for the "Power+Speed" category. If that needs a new trope of its own, I'd suggest Glass Ninja as the trope name.

edited 6th Nov '10 12:57:54 PM by Wyvernil

I like Glass Ninja for the Firepower+Speed. I'd suggest Nible Mountain for Speed+HP Tank.

Most game characters  ^*

focus on these three things from the strictly physical side of things. Since this trope stays mostly oh the physical side of things.

Who needs a signature, really?

The advantage of making a completely different tropes is that every build possible is covered, and covered only once, like the beginning of an index demonstrate. Because of that I'm against a rewriting of Fragile Speedster (which is supposed to be speed, no health, no damage), and for a rewriting of Glass Cannon who will be for build who give everything for firepower (and not anything that is fragile and provide a lot of damage, as it is currently).

Concerning the Glass Ninja, I like the name, despite the fact that ninja can be a little misleading : ninja are usually associated with stealth rather than fragility.

"Ninja" could just as easily imply stealth, though, and doesn't really say anything about strength. Something more unambiguously fast would be better.

Rhymes with "Protracted."

The fragility is in the "glass" part. Ninjas are fast and capable of doing lots of damage.

edited 6th Nov '10 1:58:37 PM by Antheia

So in the end we need a trope for every combination of Speed, Durability, and Damage?

• Damage only (Glass Cannon?)
• Speed only (Fragile Speedster?)
• Durability only (Stone Wall?)
• Speed+Damage
• Speed+Durability
• Damage+Durability (Mighty Glacier?)
• Damage+Durability+Speed (Lightning Bruiser?)

edited 6th Nov '10 2:38:52 PM by Twilightdusk

It's a mistake to assume Stone Wall characters are always slow, and if their defense is evasion based, they might even be a fragile speedster as well.

I'm strongly in favor of soft splits over new tropes. Stone Wall could easily be soft split into Toughness based/Speed based defense. Fragile Speedster could be soft split into Rapid Attacks/Heavy Attacks (as Wyvnernil suggested.)

Stone Wall is durability only. Mighty Glacier is Damage and durability.

Who needs a signature, really?

Sorry I means speed rather than fragility.

I have a small and personal problem concerning Nible Mountain : I don't know what Nible means and the French English dictionary are not helpful. So if someone can explain me the term or simply tell if Nible Mountain is a good term or not.

edited 6th Nov '10 2:08:11 PM by VioletOrange

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nimble

also: I wouldn't be so apologetic, your English is way better than my French :)

edited 6th Nov '10 2:07:39 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.

It sounds like we have quite the convoluted mess on our hands here...I'll try to update my previous post as we establish things.

@Rakath:Are you arguing that Stone Wall can't be fast? If so, read the trope. If not, then I don't follow.