Whether or not DS 9 was a ripoff of B5 (I'll buy that the idea of basing it on a space station with interstellar politics going on around it might have been influenced by JMS' pitch to Paramount), there was probably an unfortunate byproduct of their similarity, in that a lot of people at the time thought that B5 (which started airing after DS 9 did) was actually a ripoff of DS 9—myself included. So while I didn't have a lot of time for TV in the early 90s (various work and other stuff I was doing), I followed DS 9 and for the most part shunned B5. When I rediscovered B5 a few years ago (ordering Season 1 on DVD, then the others soon after), I saw that that was a mistake—I found B5 far more interesting, Darker and Edgier, and generally more realistically depicting the human condition, with amazing character development and depth. I wonder how many others fell into the same trap, when they saw this show follow shortly after DS 9. But I don't blame Paramount for that, just my lack of a more open mind then.
But as my handle suggests, I absolutely love the show and think it was the best sci-fi on television, and we'd be lucky to see something that compares again. I do also think DS 9 was the best of the Star Trek franchise as well, though—not a coincidence that it probably had the best character development, and was the only show that gave us a glimpse of a darker (and more realistic, IMHO) side to the Federation. Both B5 and DS 9 were probably byproducts of a general change in sci-fi from utopian (or absolute dystopian) to more mixed and nuanced real-world visions, which took place around that time.
I wonder if there will ever be anything put out about the Telepath War though, a canon novel or trilogy if anything—that remains a big hole in the canon, which I was disappointed that the Psi Corps trilogy didn't cover.
edited 2nd Dec '12 2:29:20 AM by WeAreAllKosh
Actual Wrestling Legend
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Speaking as a unabashed fan of DS9, I don't buy it.
Seriously, I don't. And the pattern is so obvious that anyone who says otherwise is willfully naivé.
Maybe Wolfe is showing good faith, but Ira Behr must've known what was going on. He patterned the show to be less episodic as B5 climbed in the ratings, then proceded to roll out a clandestine war puppeteered by faceless masterminds (Shadows), Section 31 (Nightwatch), corrupt Admirals (EarthGov), a global coup de tat launched by a megalomaniac on a viewscreen (Clark), and even Sheridan/Sisko's leaps into the fire are identical.
There are countless other clues, but I can't be arsed to remember them all at the moment. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Nothing wrong with taking cues from a successful show, but at least own up to it guys.
edited 2nd Dec '12 10:32:19 AM by johnnyfog
I'm a skeptical squirrel
Sharknado Warning
Don't really care about the "controversy" if you can call it that myself. The shows are different enough I like both.
B5 had better arcs, but I found DS 9's characters to be more interesting (And the acting to be generally better - exceptions to both do exist).
The same way Two Movies come out within one year, both set in an urban environment heavily stylized about how the world as we know it is fake, and humanity is a prisoner to a prison it does not and cannot perceive, where one man is The Chosen One who must defeat the inhuman powers keeping humanity captive, but only after he first learns the truth, while evading people who wear black and the cops.
edited 3rd Dec '12 6:39:41 AM by CobraPrime
I am pretty sure that the Dark City/The Matrix films involved a fairly unhealthy amount of legal action.
Sharknado Warning
Oh, and the people in black clothing all lack first names. Forgot that one.
Wikipedia makes no mention of it, nor IMDB. And The Matrix actually used some of the sets of Dark City.
edited 3rd Dec '12 6:48:32 AM by CobraPrime
United Earth
I've just started. Episode 2 is awesome. Dat writing!
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
The official reason was that O'Hare was a stage actor unused to the rigors of TV acting. The real reason was that he, well, kinda sucked and didn't get along with JMS or others. Apocryphally, he is said to have thrown a punch at Jerry Doyle, who played Mr. Garibaldi and was a personal friend of JMS.
The real reason was eventually reavealed by JMS at the pheonix comicon 2013 eight months after O'Hares death.
During the filming of Babylon 5 season one O'Hare began suffering from a mental illness that caused paranoid delusions and later hallucinations causing his behaviour to become increasingly erratic putting him at odds with his coworkers. He sought treatment for it and JMS offered to suspend the show for several months whilst he got better but O'Hare didnt want to put so many peoples jobs at risk and possibly destroy the show just as it was getting off the ground.
So instead it was agreed that he would stay for the first season then be written out so that he could seek proper treatment. JMS offered to keep the truth secret to protect O'Hares career but O'Hare told him to only keep it secret while he was alive as fans deserved to eventually know the real reason behind his departure and that it might later help raise awareness of mental illness.
Here is a link to a video from comicon where JMS explains this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwSejvufC3M
edited 20th Apr '14 5:30:29 AM by Merlanthe
Margrave of the Marshes
Still one of my favourite TV shows, I don't mind the effects looking the way they do. It's still one of the best written shows (with some exceptions) out there and I'm curious as to why JMS hasn't been able to replicate his success.
Season 5 was good once the emo-path story is concluded. You had the continuation of the conflict against the Centauri, Garabaldi's descent and the absolute tearjerker finale.
Concerning the characters: DS 5 didn't have Commander Susan Ivanova ...and that's it. You really don't need to know more. But I can also add that DS 5 didn't have Lando Molari.
While it might be an unpopular opinion...I actually liked Sheridan better than Sinclair. Or at least his character got the better episodes. One of my favourite episodes is when he wants an alliance between the different worlds and gets it by insisting that nothing whatsoever happened in quadrant whatever.
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
Well Crusade has apparently soured him on Executive Meddling and what I've heard about Lost Tales was that he is loath to do stuff that would put him under it again.
One More Day has probably not helped that attitude ^^
edited 20th Apr '14 6:42:11 AM by 3of4
"You can reply to this Message!"
United Earth
Eh, the acting is kind of wooden: The Captain tries too hard to be Charismatic, theLancer tries too hard to be a hardass Strong Woman, the Centauri try too hard to be boisterous decadent italians IN SPACE... Or maybe one could say that the characters are a bit caricatural.
I wouldn't mind reading the show in script form rather than bothering with the episodes.
edited 20th Apr '14 8:16:37 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
'80s TV Action Hero
Imperial French, rather than Italians, but Londo has a sort of Hungarian accent...
I love B5, even with series 1's wooden acting and dated effects. The Londo/G'kar stuff later on is just brilliant.
DS 9, on the other hand, only got halfway good after Gene Roddenberry...um...stopped contributing.
edited 20th Apr '14 9:42:04 AM by InverurieJones
'All he needs is for somebody to throw handgrenades at him for the rest of his life...'
Margrave of the Marshes
The same is said of TNG.
I like both shows, they both have something good to offer.
Mad Scientist Wannabe
Wasn't Gene decaying in orbit by the time DS 9 got started?
United Earth
OMG. I'm in ersode 3 of season 1, and Ambassador Molari and the slave dancer girl...
United Earth
Everyone is cute!
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
United Earth
I don't understand. Londo's had an entire episode about how the Centauri Tradition of Arranged Marriage was so friggin important that two young lovers couldn't elope together, where he realizes The Power of Love. But that's absurd, two episodes ago he was all about LOVE LOVE LOVE with his spy girlfriend. He showed a really sweet side there. Why does he have to re-learn an aesop he knew for decades? "I am an old man. I have fallen in love many times, and suffered many times; I will survive." How could that be the same guy who said "My shoes are too tight, but that's alright, because I've forgotten how to dance." Couldn't he have told the lovebirds something like "Get married, and then have whoever you want for a lover!" To quote Voltaire:
Babouc then began to fear that the genius Ithuriel had but too much reason for destroying Persepolis. The talent he possessed of gaining confidence let him that same day into all the secrets of the lady. She confessed to him her affection for the young magi, and assured him that in all the houses in Persepolis he would meet with similar examples of attachment. Babouc concluded that such a society could not possibly survive: that jealousy, discord, and vengeance must desolate every house; that tears and blood must be daily shed; and, in fine, that Ithuriel would do well to destroy immediately a city abandoned to continual disasters.
[snip: Babouc sees a lot more of the good and the bad of Persepolis,which is as decadent as it is flourishing]
While Babouc was talking to the minister, the beautiful lady with whom he had dined entered hastily, her eyes and countenance showing all the symptoms of grief and indignation. She burst into reproaches against the statesman; she shed tears; she complained bitterly that her husband had been refused a place to which his birth allowed him to aspire, and which he had fully merited by his wounds and his service. She expressed herself with such force; she uttered her complaints with such a graceful air; she overthrew objections with so much address, and enforced her arguments with so much eloquence, that she did not leave the chamber till she had made her husband's fortune.
Babouc gave her his hand, and said: "Is it possible, madam, that thou canst take so much pains to serve a man whom thou dost not love, and from whom thou hast everything to fear?"
"A man whom I do not love!" cried she "know, sir, that my husband is the best friend I have in the world; and there is nothing I would not sacrifice for him, except my own inclinations."
The lady conducted Babouc to her own house. The husband, who had at last arrived overwhelmed with grief, received his wife with transports of joy and gratitude. He embraced by turns his wife, the little magi, and Babouc. Wit, harmony, cheerfulness, and all the graces, embellished the repast.
Babouc, though a Scythian, and sent by a geni, found, that should he continue much longer in Persepolis, he would forget even the angel Ithuriel. He began to grow fond of a city, the inhabitants of which were polite, affable, and beneficent, though fickle, slanderous, and vain. He was much afraid that Persepolis would be condemned. He was even afraid to give in his account.
This, however, he did in the following manner. He caused a little statue, composed of different metals, of earth, and stones, the most precious and the most vile, to be cast by one of the best founders in the city, and carried it to Ithuriel.
"Wilt thou break," said he, "this pretty statue, because it is not wholly composed of gold and diamonds?"
Ithuriel immediately understood his meaning, and resolved to think no more of punishing Persepolis, but to leave "The world as it goes."
"For," said he, "if all is not well, all is passable."
Thus Persepolis was suffered to remain; nor did Babouc complain like Jonas, who, [according to the scriptures,] was highly incensed at the preservation of Nineveh.
edited 29th May '14 3:20:18 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Margrave of the Marshes
To borrow a phrase, it gets better. Season 1's pretty rough, there's only about 5-6 episodes I'd recommend to watch.
United Earth
Well, as of Episode 8 the characters are really growing on me. Especially Londo and Jacquard, they're both wonderful hams. The security chief with an Italian name is funny-jerk, the tough-girl turns out to have a well-hidden sensitive side, Commander Sinclair is actually clever, resourceful, and The Social Expert, the Doctor is a smug Insufferable Genius but he's very decent and principled...
It is a World of Ham, isn't it?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
Well, Londo and G'Kar are the main offenders, but the rest gets in too.
"You can reply to this Message!"
United Earth
I especially loved when Londo thanked Jacquard for saving the Centauri empire! LOL!
And yes, I'm calling him Jacquard. I just don't like this weird habit of inventing alien names by spelling human names funny. J'on J'onzz? Seriously?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
His name's G'Kar. It's much simpler to pronounce than what you're using.
RUINED!
Glad to see people are (still) talking about this show (though could do with less of the B5-DS 9 rivalry, but part of the territory, I guess). I'm admittedly not as fresh on the show as a whole, but IMO, the fourth season is probably its crescendo.
Londo and Garibaldi are easily my two favorite characters throughout the entirety of the show (with G'Kar and Kosh tying for a close third). The rest have their ups and downs, but you rarely miss with a sarcastic, cartoon-loving chief of security and a boisterous laughing-stock of a diplomat sobered by the terrible price he pays to return his people to their former glory. ^_^
edited 29th May '14 5:38:22 AM by dreamshell
Robert Hewitt Wolfe (ex-DS 9 writer) maintained that DS 9's writing staff didn't watch B5. Also, DS 9 wasn't as arc-heavy as B5. Come on—I know JMS liked to drum up controversy to gain publicity for the show, but DS 9's staff didn't rise to the bait.