Needs Cleaning Up: Humans Are Bastards get usage counts

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To bring up a point already brought up before, does anyone who voted down the rename crowner want to come in and explain why they think the current, massive misuse of this trope is OK?
That One Troper Guy
Well, I think it's because the mistaken definition (works delivering the Family-Unfriendly Aesop that all humans are evil) is also a common trope, and one that, to the best of my knowledge, we don't have yet.
Do loafing!
[up] Well, actually, that's the source of a huge argument on this very thread: there's a faction that believes that what you just described is not tropable. That's why we haven't solved this long ago (and, I assume, why so many people voted down the rename).
... I am beginning to wonder if it might be a better idea to scrap the trope and start over.

edited 12th Jul '11 5:43:06 PM by neoYTPism

230 Tyoria12th Jul 2011 06:18:29 PM from Portland, Oregon
rationally insane
Leaper has the right of it, I believe. The trope is massively misused as a general condemnation of humanity rather than a specific comparison of humans to other intelligent species, but it seems we don't want to rename the trope or concede to its Trope Decay because the misuse is (supposedly) either indistinguishable from Crapsack World or is too general to be considered a real trope.

Leaving the only option Constant Vigilance! against the misuse. It's pretty similar to what happened with Moral Dissonance. People misuse it for something far more general but consensus ran against either changing the name or splitting the trope.
231 Tyoria23rd Jul 2011 01:28:25 PM from Portland, Oregon
rationally insane
Do you think maybe it would help to start a multi-option crowner on this one as opposed to the current yes/no one that's up? I think it has been demonstrated quite sufficiently that the name is not working as intended; nothing about the word "humanity" actually suggests other species need to be taken into consideration. Only in context does the distinction become clear, and context is all too often lacking.

As I see the options are:

1. Rename. Homo Sapiens Are Bastards would be my suggestion, as this singles us out as one species among many. This option got voted down in a single-prop, but without making it clear what drawbacks came with it part-and-parcel. I think people vote differently when their choices are between a clear option with upsides and downsides, and a nebulous "other" which need not have the same problems. (I remember, for example, in 2004 people polled consistently put "Any Democrat" ahead of Bush. When the pollsters started listing specific names — Kerry, Dean, Edwards — Bush took the lead.)

2. Split. Humans Are Bastards changes its definition to match its more prevalent misuse. A new trope, Homo Sapiens Are Bastards (or whatever name consensus approves) becomes the trope this was originally intended as. This option has been shouted down by some extremely vocal types as the proposed new version of Humans Are Bastards is simply a rehash of Crapsack World, but I don't think that they speak for the majority. Personally I think you could draw a distinction.

3. Leave everything exactly the way it is. Go through a massive cleanup of bad wicks and keep a constant eye out for reappearing misuse. In voting down option one, and ignoring option two, this was the implied option we voted for, its massive drawbacks left unsaid. It is the most labor-intensive and least practical in my view.

edited 23rd Jul '11 5:56:08 PM by Tyoria

232 Xtifr23rd Jul 2011 03:23:16 PM , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
I think that deliberately ignoring the results of the current crowner and putting rename back on the options would be incredibly inappropriate, even though people can change their mind when a question is phrased differently. I say this as someone who supported a rename.
"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
233 Tyoria23rd Jul 2011 03:25:04 PM from Portland, Oregon
rationally insane
If only you'd said that a few seconds ago...

I didn't start a new crowner. I just added options. All previously-submitted votes are still valid and accounted for.

edited 23rd Jul '11 3:30:13 PM by Tyoria

234 Xtifr23rd Jul 2011 03:45:48 PM , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
If it helps, I think I disagree with the idea that it's redundant to Crapsack World, which can be more like Bastards Are In Charge. The decayed version of Humans Are Bastards could merely be a very-common subtrope. (Plus, some Crapsack Worlds don't involve humans at all. Except metaphorically.)

edit: [up] I think adding options to a still-open crowner is fine. Didn't realize that was possible in this case.

edited 23rd Jul '11 4:10:18 PM by Xtifr

"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
It's a good idea. It'll at least show us who thinks the trope-decayed version of this is tropable, and what people think we should do.
Bump, to ponder something: given the leading option in the crowner right now (the ONLY one in the green), is it possible to get any sort of "official" ruling whether "humans are bastards in general" is tropable or not? Or is there no such "authority" to whom we can turn, technically?

I ask because, of course, that argument not only takes up a good portion of this thread, but is a major reason why we haven't just done said leading option long ago.
Bumping for more votes (there are new options in the crowner, for those of you just joining us), and for a ruling on whether "humans are bastards in general" is tropable.
Avatar may be subject to change without notice.
Meh, Homo Sapiens Are Bastards has a Heh Heh, You Said X feel, especially to those less familiar with biology. That, and it's literally just a rewording of Humans Are Bastards, which could be misleading.

I guess what we should be going for here is something that emphasizes the "compared to non-humans" part.
"Maybe a President who didn't believe our soldiers were going to heaven might be a little less willing to get them killed." - Bill Maher
239 Tyoria27th Jul 2011 02:25:58 PM from Portland, Oregon
rationally insane
If the "split" option wins the crowner, we can start up an alt-names crowner to come up with some other name. Homo Sapiens Are Bastards was just the first thing that came to my mind, I certainly wouldn't mind if someone can come up with something better.
240 Xtifr27th Jul 2011 04:48:59 PM , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
Skimming through the thread, it seems like the argument wasn't so much "this isn't tropable" as it was "this is either a duplicate of an existing trope or it isn't tropable".

If that's the case, an obvious solution, if split wins, is to perform the split, and leave the possibility of a merger with the duplicate trope open.

(I also noticed that the "it isn't tropable" arguments primarily came from one person, for what that's worth. People who agreed may have simply felt that he made the point well enough on his own.)
"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
241 Balmung27th Jul 2011 04:49:15 PM from A shiny new Linux install , Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Well, how about an alternative, like splitting the misuse off to People Are Bastards? Ad I do think it that general misuse, especially about such a worldview being held is tropable and distinct from Crapsack World.

edited 27th Jul '11 4:50:22 PM by Balmung

242 Xtifr27th Jul 2011 05:52:12 PM , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
[up]That's basically the same as the currently leading option in the crowner, except that you're suggesting swapping the names of the split tropes. (Renaming the misuse instead of the original.) Which is certainly a reasonable suggestion, but I'm not sure why it would be better.

edited 27th Jul '11 5:53:25 PM by Xtifr

"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
243 Tyoria27th Jul 2011 07:23:56 PM from Portland, Oregon
rationally insane
You could add it as an option to the crowner. Keep Humans Are Bastards as it is and launch a new trope like People Are Bastards for the misuse. Personally, I'd prefer an option that's going to make the trope "human beings are worse than other species" as clear as possible, because I think the misuse is basically people thinking Humans Are Bastards is interchangeable with "People are bastards". A trope that actually matches that misuse might help, but I think we'd still see some.

However, it's still a better option than doing nothing.

edited 27th Jul '11 7:24:09 PM by Tyoria

244 Tyoria29th Jul 2011 11:24:23 PM from Portland, Oregon
rationally insane
bumping. Very narrow lead on creating the new trope.
245 JustaUsername29th Jul 2011 11:58:24 PM from Melbourne, Australia , Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
Psionic Little Dragon
Yeah...I'm not a fan of the "Homo Sapiens are Bastards" title, doesn't feel like a nice title compared to "Humans are Bastards".

edited 30th Jul '11 12:01:04 AM by JustaUsername

Some people say I'm lazy. It's hard to disagree.
246 Tyoria30th Jul 2011 12:37:13 PM from Portland, Oregon
rationally insane
Homo Sapiens Are Bastards is not set in stone as the new title for the proposed trope. If it wins the crowner — and it's been maintaining a slim but steady lead for several days now — we can do a names crowner. Does anyone have suggestions for a title that means Humans Are Bastards in the specific sense of humans compared to other intelligent species, that won't confuse people as basically the reverse of Rousseau Was Right (and for crying out loud, Rousseau WasWrong is a redirect to Humans Are Bastards, whose idea was that?)

You can start proposing titles now, even.

247 Xtifr30th Jul 2011 04:37:45 PM , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
Earthmen Are Bastards or Terrans Are Bastards might work for the new name of the original trope. Gives it the appropriate Skiffy flavor.
"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
[up]I quite like Terrans Are Bastards. That would be a lot harder to misuse.
It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
249 Tyoria31st Jul 2011 02:28:06 AM from Portland, Oregon
rationally insane
Hmm, how long before we can do a names crowner? The Trope Transplant option has been winning for several days now, but by a 1 or 2 vote margin the whole time.

edited 31st Jul '11 2:28:23 AM by Tyoria

250 Xtifr31st Jul 2011 03:58:05 AM , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
Hmm, it's 12:6 (+6 and 2:1) now. Maybe the new name suggestions were just what we needed to break the stalemate. Terrans Are Bastards FTW. :)

edit: yes, it's only a couple ahead of the second place option, but it's also the only option above the magic 65% mark.

edited 31st Jul '11 4:07:19 AM by Xtifr

"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.

Alternative Titles: Humans Are Bastards
24th Feb '12 7:38:44 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:
What do we rename Humans Are Bastards, the trope meaning "humans are bastards compared to other sapient species"?

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