When They Cry - Higurashi and Umineko

IIRC, isn't George supposed to be 20 in 1986, making the age difference 20-18? Still doesn't make his actions any less creepy in 1980. Seems I ain't the only one who thinks he's a creeper (though IMO, pretty much a Yandere if his reponse to that test is any indication), which is actually why I think he's the culprit.

So, who do you think the killer(s) are inside the cat box? I've already made my opinion known, though I believe that you DON'T have to use fan fiction to know who it is, using only events from the novels to do so. One is practically a text book case of split personality disorder with hints that she's VERY mentally unstable as early as the first novel, and the other's a Yandere.

I believe JOOJI is 23 in 1986, and even if Shannon is really 19, he still thinks she's 16

Anyway I assume you meant to towards Lyendith, but I've already made my opinions on the Rosatrice theory known as well. KNM uses too much Erika!Logic, ignores too much of the narrative, and blows insignificant stuff way out of proportion, in order to create an answer which, compared to the "Offical" explanation, (which is unique, imaginative, and downright beautiful) into what's pretty much a bog standard murder mystery. It's an answer that makes some logical sense, at the cost of any meaning the story might have had.

Anyway yeah. I say Shkannon is the gameboard culprit. Through a combination of faking her various deaths, switching personae, bribing the adults into cooperation, and the occasional murder/suicide, all of the murders become possible.

Edit: Prime? Ah, well. In that case, I already mentioned the Murder Game Gone wrong idea, but if I had to pin it on someone, yeah. Probably either Kyrie or George. Was reading a tumblr where someone was doing a reread, and with hindsight a lot of George's dialogue makes it sounds like he really, really passive-aggressively despises Battler. Something to consider, is that when Ange read her book of truth or whatever, there's really only a few answers that would make her freak out like she did, and for Eva to say silent the whole time. Like if the culprit was Gohda, Eva would've just said that, and Ange wouldn't have a mental breakdown.

edited 27th Oct '12 2:39:22 PM by Oroboro

I meant as in "prime"

I've thought about that, but that doesn't change the fact that George and Jessica didn't notice they were dating the same person. So there must have been some trickery involved. And Jessica seems pretty clueless to me…

Yeah, Ikuko looks normal, if you except that she's maybe 70 years old and looks 30. Let's call it a last bit of trolling from the author.

There are not that many options… as I said, my main suspects are Kyrie and Rosa. The Fragment displayed by Bern may not be the truth of Ange's timeline, but it at least shows that it is possible for Kyrie to act that way. George may be a possiblity, but there is this purple statement in Bern's game: "George couldn't kill an adult. He could kill a child though, kihihihihi!" Purple statements are equivalent to a red truth for the non-culprits. Now it's unclear whether this applies only to Bern's game or to reality, and George is physically perfectly capable of killing an adult if his fights are anything to go by… and as you say, he has some heavily implied Yandere tendencies.

edited 28th Oct '12 4:07:35 AM by Lyendith

So on another theoretical note, there's a theory (Which I don't necessarily agree with, but is still kind of interesting) out there which basically suggests That Yasu survived and took up pseudonym Ikuko Hachijo.

There's a decent amount of supporting evidence. Ikuko is basically living Yasu's ultimate dream - living alone with Battler and writing mystery novels together. If Yasu wrote EP 1-2 and cast them out into the sea, because of certain verifiable facts in the stories (When the storm hit that day, that Ange didn't go because of stomachache) that would've been impossible to know beforehand, suggests that they were written post-incident. It would explain how Amnesia Battler - working with Ikuko was able to remember and work out so much stuff that he couldn't know from his Po V. Ikuko is seemingly independently wealthy, as is Yasu, and it's not impossible that during the 2 years after she found the gold she could've set up a double life on the mainland. The situation with "Beatrice" sitting right there, while Battler tries to remember but doesn't know parallels Kinzo and EP 6 Battler so hard it hurts. Also there's some stuff about Kanji in her name and how it relates to the phrase "I am one yet many" and the number 19 or something, I don't quite remember.

And there's a few problems with the theory as well. It's a bit creepy if you think about it too hard. I think there was a Stephen King novel with a similar premise? Even if possible, it'd be logistically difficult for Yasu to set it all up while still working as a servant, and sort of makes undermines her internal struggle in that she's apparently doing just fine on her own. And quite frankly while there's some good evidence, it isn't presented strongly enough in the narrative to satisfy Knox's 8th about clues being presented. Probably some other stuff too, but I can't think of it right now.

Anyway, yeah. Food for thought.

Edit: Totally unrelated, but I love this comic of one my favorite scenes in EP 6. [1]◊

edited 28th Oct '12 9:57:59 AM by Oroboro

Come to think of it, there are only three reasons Eva would have to hide the contents of the journal.

1. Protect Ange from the identity of the culrpit.

2. Protect Ange from the truth of Battler's fate.

3. Protect the identity of the culprit for personal reasons.

Which leads me to this.

The most likely culprit identity is one that covers at least two of the three motives.

The freak out in the 8th novel could only be triggered by three possible culprits. Personally:

The true culprit's idenity contained in Eva's Journal is George. This culprit identity covers motive 3, likely covers motive 2, and could possibly cover motive 1 as well.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/umineko_no_naku_koro_ni_episode_3_banquet_of_the_golden_witch/v01/c007/41.html

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/umineko_no_naku_koro_ni_episode_3_banquet_of_the_golden_witch/v01/c009/2.html

Thought of something interesting regarding this twilight upon looking up the manga.

The rose glyph is a metaphor for the type of weapon involved, most likely a gun. It is also quite possible that the stake could have been used in Shannon's murder due to the size and sectional density of the stake.

If you think carefully, one can compare the rose to the nature of a ballistics wound, the bud of the rose being like the entry wound and the blossom being the exit wound.

Also of note is that Rosa and Kyrie were supposedly stading watch over the kids during the night. We don't know if Battler was actually asleep during part of this so Kyrie and Rosa may not have been supervised.

There are actually three possible candidates for this murder, Kyrie, Rosa, and Shannon.

To be honest, I disagree about The Rosatrice theory turning the story into a bog standard murder mystery. I think it turns Umineko into a master crafted, intricate, lovingly written three layered story on par with Inception in depth and complexity. Given how much I really loved that movie and wasn't confused at all by it, this is a massive compliment. Our Confessions mentions something about some "Third Story" so I suspect that the "Three Layered Story Theory" does have some weight behind it. I also think R7 is the kind of author that is clever/brilliant enough to be able to pull such a magnificant trick in his works and may have indeed did so.

edit: What I mean by that is how Ange would freak out if Battler's supposed best friend was the one that killed everyone, possibly Battler included. Also, even if I don't buy the theory, that comic is pretty frickin hilarious anyway.

edited 28th Oct '12 3:08:49 PM by magnum12

I kind of agree, though I have a hard time imagining Ange giving a shit about George. Maybe it's actually all about Black Battler after all! /executioner.ogg Honestly on my first read through my original though was that the book was blank and the horrible truth was that she'll really never know anything. But looking back I don't think that was the case.

Another thing to consider is that Eva's Po V may not be absolute. If the book details how she say, came across Kyrie with a smoking gun standing over George's body and immediately freaks and kills her, it could've been possible that Kyrie went after him because he went all Murder on someone else, etc.

Or maybe something like this happened. [1]◊ (I could link these all day. >_>)

Edit: Links don't work.

edited 28th Oct '12 3:09:15 PM by Oroboro

I laughed.

Hum… could someone explain what this "Rosatrice" theory is all about? Briefly? I keep reading Rosatrice here, Rosatrice there… is that the theory developped in that 8 hour long video?

Yes.

This gist of the theory is that Rosa is the culprit on the gameboards, and that Shkannon is all a lie Ryukushi put in the story to distract us from the REAL truth. There's enough twisted logic used to explain how Rosa was able to commit the murders in sheer logical terms, so the only refutations are ones on grounds of narrative.

If it wasn't obvious I rather dislike this theory, so I'll refrain from saying more.

Edit: On another note, this interview with Ryukushi has some interesting insights, although it's a tad long. [1]

edited 29th Oct '12 8:03:07 AM by Oroboro

Eh… by culprit, you mean, the one who gives the letter to Maria and sets up the bomb to explode at Midnight? I mean I suspect Rosa of being the culprit of at least some murders, but certainly not the mastermind… that sounds a pretty daring theory… but if the guy went to all the trouble of making 8 hours of commentary, there must be at least some ground to it…

Aha… ahahahahahaha… true, those who almost gave up when fantasy scenes showed up aren't really tough, huh, hahaha… ^__^"

edited 29th Oct '12 12:17:16 PM by Lyendith

Read if you wish, and believe what you want to believe through your own free will.

In summary, the culprits are Rosa and George in the 1st four novels, with Dr. Nanjo being the sole accomlice in the same boards. George's motive is because he is a Yandere. Rosa is influenced by her quite nasty Start of Darkness which is a combination of events detailed in the third novel and the fact that love (more specifically, the lack of it) is the commonality in pretty much all of the pain that she's suffered through in her life. Dr. Nanjo's motivation is hinted at in the third novel, i.e. love/desperation to save his grandson, which is why he would most likely need the money. This theory is MUCH easier to understand if you read The Four Loves.

If you do some chess board thinking based on knowledge of the characters, the Rosatrice theory actually does a pretty good job in explaining some of the patterns in terms of targeting priority. Ask youself these questions. 1. Why is the mortality point of Maria in the 3rd, 5th, and 6th novels so radically different from the 1st, 2nd, and 4th novels? 2. Why are Rudolf and Kyrie usually killed very early? 3. Why is Eva usually an early casualty?

Even if I believe the theory, I actually disagree with it on some points, namely on the nature of magic, the meta world, and on prime.

Prime is a world where Eva's journal exists. The closest world in the novels to Prime is the 3rd novel. Eva survived on Prime. Since Eva's Journal exists in the timeline derived from the 3rd novel, the true culprit is whoever the culprit is in the 3rd novel. Since Eva's Journal contains the truth this means that it is impossible for the culprit of the 3rd novel to be guilty in the 3rd novel, yet innocent in the true incident.

edited 29th Oct '12 6:07:27 PM by magnum12

The thing is… from what I understood, there is no "future that stems from the 3rd novel's world" since it's just a tale. Ange's future in EP4 and the diary stem from Rokkenjima Prime ; and it's established that Eva killed at least Battler in the 3rd novel, which makes quite a big difference. Unless the last scene was fake, but I don't think so − EP7's Tea Party makes a call back to it when Eva faces Kyrie (something like "the spectators knew that in another world, Eva also became a murderer").

Well, as I said, it's really unclear whether each arc has its own future, but if that was the case we wouldn't be talking about "Rokkenjima Prime" and the "Single Truth". From what I understood, "Rokkenjima Prime" is the real Rokkenjima of a particular timeline (which gives birth to Ange's future as we see it), and Episode 1-6 are just theoretical tales based on that one timeline.

Episode 7's Tea Party would then be the truth of another timeline with another future (where maybe Ange doesn't meet Bern and ends up getting along with Eva, who knows).

edited 30th Oct '12 4:58:24 AM by Lyendith

Lyendith: I was under the impression that each world was real. Prime merely refers to Ange's world.

It's debatable. The gist of author theory in that the "true" world, Rokkenjima Prime, the contents of Ep1-2 were written by Yasu and thrown into the sea, while Ep3-6 were written by an amnesiac Battler as he tried to remember what happened those fateful days. It's easy enough to take that a step back, and say the books are just the human representation of the struggles that went on in the metaworld, thanks to Lambdadelta's power, but honestly the story doesn't change much either way you look at it.

The NA cover of the first volume of the Umineko manga.◊

edited 30th Oct '12 4:31:00 PM by Classifiedzerogoki

Huh. That's... non-indicative.

Well the Higurashi covers are like that too.

At least you have the manga published in your country. TT__TT I don't think it will be published in France anytime soon…

___

Back on Episode 2, there are two things that didn't really catch my attention the first time (they had no reason to) but did here.

First: Rosa claims to have met and talked to Kinzō who is supposed to be, you know, dead. The servants, Nanjō or Krauss and Natsuhi had obvious reasons to claim that, but Rosa…? The narration is from Battler (i.e. reliable) when she says that, which means she is lying. And that she is somehow in cahoot with at least Shannon and Genji (and by extension, probably Kumasawa). That does nothing to ease my suspicion on Rosa for the first twilight. Among those who are called to the chapel before that, only her survived. The thing is, she never mentions having been in that chapel with the others ; so, either (a) that scene was all a lie, (b) Rosa is hiding it on purpose, or (c) that scene did happen but she doesn't remember it. Hum…

Second: Beatrice claims in red "Kanon was killed in this room." That's odd ; not "he died" but "he was killed". That kind of contradicts Will's statement: "Illusions who have fulfilled their role do not leave a corpse". Kanon disappears when Shannon dies. If Shannon is still alive but Kanon disapeared, that would mean Shannon "killed" him herself, as well as Jessica (that would explain the "fulfilled their role" part). Rosa provides her and Genji an alibi, but as shown above they are probably accomplices, so that counts for nothing.

Hum… procceding.

PS: Heh, apparently some guy did a PS 3 patch of Chiru all by himself… and it looks awesome (spoil Episode 7).

edited 1st Nov '12 5:51:35 AM by Lyendith

Basically whenever Will says something like "The golden truth locks the door of illusions" or whatever (Can't remember the exact quote) it means that someone is lying because they've been bribed with gold (Or threatened with the bomb / I'll keep your family safe). It's a simple but effective trick that allows Yasu to make the Ushriomiya's dance like puppets.

I've seen some of those PS 3 videos before, but it seems like the guy isn't sharing.

I suspect that Will's Solutions may be worded as double edged metaphors.

Taking the comment about the door, it could also mean that the door was merely locked with a Gold Truth. Rosa herself was pretending to unlock the door. The servants could just simply be wrong about the door being locked. Since the chapel is rarely used, baring some maintenance, the servants had a very valid reason to BELIEVE the door was locked, hence the gold truth. Either way, the testimony of the servants was false, but I suspect it wasn't for malicious reasons.

As for the 2nd twilight, the manga makes it pretty clear that BOTH Rosa and Shannon split off from Battler's group (much like how both of their faces were equally mutilated in the 1st twilight of the 1st novel's manga version), with Rosa splitting to get Kinzo's gun. They are both valid suspects for this murder in terms of alibi. As per the solution, it is possible that Rosa moved the corpse to set up the "Demon Kanon" scenario as a cruel manipulation to aquire all of the master keys.

As per the claim that the Rosatrice Theory ignores narrative, I think I can counter that with a blue truth about the meta world. Note that this diverges strongly from Rosatrice Prime and assumes that Umineko like Higurashi is like a delicious cake in which the core is mystery but the frosting/decor is fantasy, but the interaction between the two is essential to the whole. When refering to Meta-Beatrice, I shall use the term "Witch" as in the witch in the meta world. Yasu's connection to all of this is strictly to the island.

The body and persona connections of Yasu are reversed.

The witch that appears on the island is not the same as the witch in the meta world.

Much like Bernkastel, "Witch" Beatrice is a splinter personality that upon an apothesis inducing event, splits from the host. The witch inherits certain things from the host. The host in "Witch" Beatrice's case may indeed be Shannon, and she inherited Shannon's old love for Battler. Her form is based on the legend of the Golden Witch that was on the island. The trigger for the apothesis were the events of Prime. "Witch" Beatrice also inherited other things like knowledge of the true events and the things leading up to them. "Witch" Beatrice represents love, both the light and dark side. Chick Beato is akin to a purification of the darkness in "Witch Beatrice", but it is an imperfect larval state. The whole calling Battler "father" thing is completely innocent in intention, since there is nothing squicky about a "creation" calling their creator "father". This eventually transforms into the "adult form" we see at the end of the 6th novel. "Witch" Beatrice set herself up as the bad guy to protect the honor of the island's inhabitants. "Witch" Beatrice's boards follow a similar Bat Man Gambit strategy regarding her host but are intentionally designed so that the "1/1000 people" referenced in Our Confessions will be able to see through the ruse and arrive at the truth.

edited 1st Nov '12 10:40:57 AM by magnum12

The problem is that with EP 2 is that in canon, Rosa is pretty much still an accomplice in EP 2. Rosatrice theory just bumps that up to she was working it all out on her own, so much of the evidence applies both ways.

Anyway, when I'm talking about narrative, I don't just mean the entirety of the metaworld stuff, but how Yasu's story, her hopes, her dreams, her fears, her doubts, her thoughts on the world and her family are all intricately woven into the story, and the message she wanted the world (But mostly just Battler.) THIS is the basis for the 3 stories mentioned in Our Confessions. The Meta-Fantasy narrative, the underlying "behind the scenes" mystery narrative, and the heart of the story, Yasu's heart. Rather than just cruelly twisting facts to pinpoint another culprit, reaching it requires you to reach a much deeper understanding, to read it with love and empathy for her character.

And quite frankly, If the Rosatrice theory was true, that would make Ryukushi a pretty shitty writer. You can say all you want how you think it's amazing he managed to hide this all in there, but if it's meant to be found intentionally, getting there requires some pretty bullshit leaps of logic and interpretation. I mean, seriously. Fake Death Drugs? One line about Nanjo's granddaughter? Sorry, but that's just not how writing works. With Yasu in mind, you can trace a clear path from beginning to end. With Rosa, you have to do all sorts of backwards flips and weird twists to get it to work, and throw out pretty much the entirety of Chiru.

... I should really stop ranting about this, but I can't. I love Umineko TOO MUCH.

I tend to lean towards Oroboro's side of the argument but I can see some merits in Magnum's theories too.

Just came up with the best idea for the mother of all Halloween scares/haunted trick or treat tricks for next year's Halloween. For this stunt, I will need the following: (how the pieces are related should be relatively obvious)

1. Fake blood and a decent amount of it at that. 2. Links of raw sausage or something similar to represent spilt intestines. 3. Wound special effect stuff. 4. Some hoes (no, not "those" hoes ya perverts ) 5. Some dim lights on the ground to act as a trail. 6. A garage. 7. A fake knife and bill hook set up. 8. Some constructed stuff. 9. A 28 fake nails set up. 10. Some stake set-ups. 11. Some buddies to set this up and share the lulz with.

The plan: The trick or treaters (NOT engaging stuff beyond the treats if children are present) travel in groups along the lighted path to the garage to get their treats. Once they have gotten their treats, some one flicks the switch, revealing "Happy Halloween" scrawled in fake blood and the scare.....a When They Cry style fake murder scenario . This scenario combines the very 1st twilight of Umineko, a Watanagashi, the signature murder of Meakashi-hen (includes a fake knife in head set up AND an additional 28 fake nails set up for added shock ), a stake victim, and a guy with the fake bill hook set-up.

Now then, just how trolly is this stunt on the trolling scale of Mion—>Normal Shion—>Lambadelta—>Beatrice—>Bernkastel? If this causes any actual trauma, then the prank just isn't funny, which is the reason why I would NEVER do this scare if kids are present. Any suggestions on how to further ramp up the Nightmare Fuel or is this scare way too intense?

edited 1st Nov '12 9:32:58 PM by magnum12

Only way I could think of to add anything to this is to have someone do the "head drop" illusion as in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvdXLRlBg3c

It'd make no sense whatsoever, but played right, it's creepy as hell. I believe there's a coat hanger in the shirt and then he just lowers his head but the illusion looks very genuine.

You should also capture some butterflies and paint them in gold, then release them around the "crime scene".

… okay now I'm sure of it, Akiko Shikata is a witch. The Majestic Witch of Epicness, Enchantment and Tearjerking.

edited 2nd Nov '12 7:37:56 AM by Lyendith