A Song Of Ice And Fire

To address those 'failures':

• Renly dying is a lost opportunity, but that's all. It's just losing a chance to majorly ahead.
• The thing Edmure did wasn't a loss, it just wasn't as much of a victory as he was hoping for.
• Losing the North is a major loss, but he was on his way to fix that. Really, there's no way he would've failed to beat the Ironmen if the Red Wedding hadn't happened.
• Sansa being married doesn't really affect his position in any way. Makes the stakes a little higher, but that's all.
• The Tyrells joining the Lannisters and Stannis being beaten: Beating Stannis was costly for them- this basically works out to a neutral in Robb's eyes. Remember, the North is the size of the other six kingdoms combined; numbers are the least of Robb's worries.
• Karstarks leaving: Hurts him about as much as not having Storm's End and the Florents hurts the other side. Which is to say, not enough to turn the tide either way.
• Freys leaving: Hardly fair include this one in a discussion about whether or not the Freys should've gone back to him, now is it?

So, I mean, yeah, it would've been fairly tricky for him to keep defending the Riverlands, but it's not unworkable- the Freys joining the other side is the main reason things there fell apart so quickly after the Red Wedding. By all appearances the Lannister forces proper are fairly depleted; without the Boltons and Freys joining them, they'd be forced to rely entirely on the Tyrells. I'd give that fight a 50/50 chances for Robb's side at worst.

1) Renly dying wasn't Robb's fault, but it meant that the Tyrells were freed up for a Lannister alliance.

2) It was the last chance they had of defeating the Lannisters.

3) It's not as simple as you're making it out to be. The moment he moves North, the Lannisters and Tyrells would have cruse the Riverlords and with the Greyjoys holding Moat Cailin and Lysa refusing to let them use Gulltown, making their way North won't be easy (of course once they get there they shouldn't have much trouble pushing the Greyjoys back into the sea), but the sheer size of the place means it would take a long time. Most likely, long enough for the Riverlands to be crushed.

4) It does effect his position as it means he has one less heir. Wasn't Jon lost beyond the wall at that point?

5) The North's area is around as big as the rest of Westeros combined, GRRM said they have about as many men as the Vale to call upon. The Reach has more men. The UK can fit into Canada about 44 time, but it's population is almost two times bigger. Most of Westeros' armies are poorly trained peasant conscripts, but GRRM said that Tywin's made sure to keep his army not only well trained, but with quality equipment.

6) I think you're underestimating the Stormlands a bit. The Stormlands has about 30,000 men. 35,000 if you count Dragonstone plus it has the Royal Fleet. The Royal Fleet is strong enough to go up against the Redwyne and Iron Fleet and possibly win. The Florents can call on 2,000 men. They're a noble House and a powerful one, but not comparable to a Great House like the Baratheons. I agree that Karstark leaving wasn't a game changer though. I'm only mentioning it because it's another nail in Robb's coffin.

7) You're right. I guess I got carried away.

8) The Lannister's weren't completely depleted. They still had quite a few men. That's why they're still fighting. They would be a lot more dependant on the Tyrells, but the Reach has the most men of any Kingdom. They have enough to spare. The Reach and the Westerlands are the wealthiest Kingdoms, their armies are the best equipped, they have the most food and the most men. The only way I can possibly see Robb's side coming out on the winning side is if the Arryn's help them and that wasn't going to happen. If the Vale allies with Robb that leaves them with 60,000 troops against a Lannister-Tyrell alliance of 110,000. 40,000 from Tywin and 70,000 from Mace. It would still be an uphill battle.

edited 3rd Sep '14 12:17:59 AM by 940131

Dude, you think that just because the North is as big as the other kingdoms combined geographically they also has as many men as the other kingdoms combined? Do you know how demographics work? Most of the north is cold and barely suitable for farming, compared to the fertile regions of the Stormlands, the Vale,the Westlands, the Crownlands and especially the Riverlands and the Reach.

Robb was badly outnumbered since the start. A problem that the Lannisters allying the Freys and no longer havingo divide their forces between Robb and Stannis compounded immensely.

edited 3rd Sep '14 2:25:22 AM by Druplesnubb

We don't actually know what's the population of the North. It is mentioned that raising troops is difficult due to the North's large area and non-existant road network. A sparse population does not always equal a low population. I mean, the Russian Empire was very sparsely populated and still had a fuckton of people.

Also, had the Red Wedding not happened, Robb would have still been able to hold everything from the Neck and above. He'd have to abandon the Riverlands, though. Which would probably mean the Northern Kingdom was in for a famine.

Russia's population has historically been crowded into the European part with the Asian part being sparsely populated.

Honor would never allow him to abandon the Riverlands and either way he wouldn't have the strength to avenge Ned. The best he'd be able to hope for was locking himself up behind Moat Cailin. Most of the Riverlands crops were destroyed in that silly succession war anyways from Tywins foraging in the Riverlands. Just like the Robb's pillaging in the Westerlands destroyed their crops. Northern crops were left to untendended while the men marched off to war. To survive the Winter, the North can only really look to the Vale or the Reach.

edited 3rd Sep '14 5:04:02 AM by 940131

ok, im the only one who see the red wedding as an asspull? i meant yes there is foreshadowing, but is so strange, in one momento everything is ok and in the next is "OH MY GOD IS A TRAP!!", i was....weird

Nah. It killed my emotional involvement in the story, but it wasn't an asspull.

well, for me is not an asspull in the whole, but it was more a "wait what?" that anything else

also, i feel that jeoffry death was much better in the tv show, a least there we was him as a real asshole, in the book is more a little bitch with to much power

Meh, not a fan of how the show whitewashed Cersei by shunting some of her worse deeds onto Joffrey, making him an even flatter character.

Nope, it all makes perfect narrative sense. Besides all the foreshadowing (Tywin's letters, Edmure's wife crying, Daenerys' visions and Patchface's ramblings) the Red Wedding is the natural conclusion of the story up until that point. So far, Robb has won every single battle no matter how outnumbered he's been. This would have been completely boring and one-sided if not for the fact that even though he keeps winning militarily his political defeats just get worse. Robb is a tragic character, meant to show how military genius alone isn't enough to win wars. George has stated in an interview that as soon as he decided on Robb's death he knew that he couldn't be killed off in a battle, it had to be a betrayal from within, and I agree with him.

What really cements the tragedy of Robb's storyline is how it's his own virtues that eventually brings him down. It's his trust in his "brother" that leads to the sack of Winterfell. It's his sense of honor and duty that leads him to marry Jeyne after their night together. It's his sense of justice that loses him the support of the Karstarks. This wouldn't have worked if everything then just worked out fine and he just kept kicking Lannister butt through the rest of the series.

I think that after the War of the Five Kings is over, if the Others don't kill everyone (which I really don't think they will), Robb's name will be sung more than any other's, both in triumph and despair. He will be the one people look back on, The Last King in the North, to wonder if maybe, just maybe, things could have gone a little differently. Robb, more than any other character, was meant for the world of myths and legends, and thus he had to leave the world of the living.

edited 5th Sep '14 4:21:29 PM by Druplesnubb

i dont have anything against the efecto of the red wedding, is how it was write it, maybe because i was in catalyn POV but it was so sudden and strange that i could tell what was happeing until everyone dies

and maybe im mean, but i care more more about catalyn than robb

the thing is, joffrey barely apears in the books, a least in the show you can love to hate him, hear i could even bother to care if he dies or not

Very well put.

That was very well put and I agree with most of it, although I don't think he'll be celebrated much outside of the North and possibly the Vale. From what I remember, the Starks did a fair bit of foraging during the war.

It's not so much what he did but what he is—a fifteen year-old boy who never lost a battle, a young king, out to avenge his father, fighting monsters (thinking Gregor here) along side a direwolf, betrayed by his allies, etc. The singers won't be able to stay away from him.

No one remembers pillaging.

Well, Alexander the Great was Robb Stark on steroids and people are pretty split about him. Half remember him as, more or less, what's described above while the other half thinks of him as a genocidal tyrant who loved him some Rape, Pillage, and Burn.

Pillage tends to live a scar in people's minds, for some reason.

edited 5th Sep '14 7:30:07 PM by LogoP

Every side pillaged in the war. It won't be remembered especially.

The Westerlands are going to remember Robb's pillaging, just as the Riverlands are going to remember Tywin's. Granted, Tywin likely treated the enemy peasants much, much worse than Robb ever did.

I imagine the Riverlands would remember the Tywins pillaging and the West would remember Robb's. I'm sure Robb will be seen as a great hero in the North and maybe the Riverlands, but I'm not sure the rest of Westeros would.

Am I the only one who loves Joffrey?

edited 5th Sep '14 8:10:21 PM by 940131

for me robb will be a in-universe vindicated by history, remenber that he was a unsurper of the throne and he didnt rule that much, he maybe be remnber as a great warrior, but aside for soldiers songs and the ocasional red wedding song, is will be the young killed wolf

joffrey on the other hand, i could see him be write as a great king and all but many song will remenber as the idiot king, the vicious or maghor the cruel 2.0

joffrey for me was meh, in the tv show a least it look despicable, here is pretty much a viserys,

also, im the only who see a great what if in the end of the first book? the death of ned and drogo, have this two never happen we may have seen a essos-westeros war

edited 5th Sep '14 8:59:25 PM by unknowing

I mean that I like Joffrey in a Love to Hate. He's so evil.

When your enemy has a good story behind him, he's got to be a real monster to lose that romantic association. After the wounds heal, the Young Wolf would likely be seen by the Westerners as a Worthy Opponent of the Mighty Tywin Lannister.

i dont, most likey because he was so little screan time in the books, a least in the tv show he can show how much of a bastard he is, in the books is just really annoying

like i say, that would be a vindicated by history becasue it will take a while, also because he die in a very tragic and cowarly way, walter frey will be see as an uber scum for that

i meant, have anyone read the iliad? because as far i remenber when the sacred hospitality was broken, it star a big,freakin,war

I doubt the Westerlanders would romanticize the guy who starved them out, killed their people and raped their women (Not that Robb specifically ordered any rapes, but it did happen).

I guess it's Gleeson's performance. He did a great job.

The Laws of Hospitality go along way back. The Olympian Gods my had been selfish, vindictive, petty Jerkass Gods, but even they drew the line at breaking the Laws of Hospitality... and hubris... and incest.

edited 6th Sep '14 12:18:11 PM by 940131

Edward the Black Prince?

That's what I meant about the wounds healing, anyway. That stuff is what happens in war, its presented as being a fact of life for these people. They don't like it, but there's no particular indication that they see one side as being any worse for it than the other. In fact, numerous times people make the point that the wolves are no better or worse than the lions. I would imagine that all but the most shocking war crimes (Gregor certainly seems to have made himself a reputation) will be forgotten about by peasants who want to get on with their lives, and after a few generations all that will be remembered are the characters interesting enough to get songs written.