Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

As brought up in the Scar discussion, it actualy is possible for a character to be removed from the never again list if at some point in the future they do enough. The list basicly means that for an individual character, as of yet, they do not qualify and unles something big happens at some point, they are not worth discussing again. For a whole show, it means that so far it does not have any CM's in it. If superboy prime is redeemed at some point in the future he will be cut. It just means that as of now a decision has been made and we will only discuss it again if a new work is released, or, in the case of Scar, someone brings up something that was not brought up before. It is actualy possible that Chrysalis or someone new could count in the future, but so far we do not have any contenders. The two closest to the line were Discord in his debut episode (who was just barely to silly to count and has now been redeemed anyway) and Chrysalis in the comics (who just barely failed the baseline heinous standard).

Speaking of which, I know that Bellatrix did not love Voldemort, but wouldn't her loyalty alone disqualify her?

edited 18th Apr '14 10:30:07 AM by bobg

Well, Film!Bellatrix only.

Being a fanatic isn't redeeming like that. Bella views him as the avatar of everything she holds as an ideal: blood purity, authoritarianism, unfettered cruelty etc. and worships him as he's the avatar of that.

Except people have already cited King Sombra as a villain who was played entirely unsympathetically and then Killed Off for Real. He wasn't an example, yes, but not because of anything to do with the potential for redemption. I'm not really in favor of removing it from the Never Again list, because it's very unlikely that any villain will ever qualify and it's a good way of dealing with the people who badly want the show to have an example. But it's not as strictly impossible as you're saying.

edited 18th Apr '14 12:14:07 PM by nrjxll

Faust actually said that she does not believe every villain could be redeemed and that there are some beyond redemption. The reason for Why she believed it was possible for Discord was because she believed him to be more chaotic than evil. Of course just because a character is beyond redemption does not mean they are a CM. Remember Jason Voorhees?

What I'm about to say isn't really important to the whole idea of Fi M, but I thought that it was simply too interesting to pass up. While she was working on the show, Lauren Faust originally wanted the show to be more action-packed, essentially being Powerpuff Girls in pony form. When they decided to make the show a daily slice-of-life series, however, Faust ultimately left the show. Just imagine what the show would've been like had Faust had gotten her way.

That sounds suspiciously like a fan explanation to me, to be honest. To my knowledge, there's no one, universally-accepted reason that Faust left the show. I've heard reasons ranging from excessive interference by Hasbro to disappointment / disgust with the fandom to severe illness and back again since she left, and none of them have been anywhere close to confirmed. Most likely, the true reason for her departure won't be known until some time after the series's end.

edited 18th Apr '14 2:09:11 PM by FringeBenefits

I was looking on the Pokémon article, and I was wondering if the ending to the Darkrai entry should be erased, because it implies that Darkrai turned good later on because his memories were erased.

edited 18th Apr '14 3:14:17 PM by AustinDR

These could use some expansion:

• Grims and maybe Lubikka
• https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=976#24378
  • The Fable villains
  • Azar Javed
• Any VG monsters need to be despoilered?

edited 19th Apr '14 12:15:27 PM by ACW

I don't think a villain being "reprogrammed" to be good is a mark against their former self.

Sounds like the opposite of what happened to Akakios/Samhain. He became a CM again once he got un-brainwashed.

edited 18th Apr '14 3:23:50 PM by ACW

Okay then.

I can rewrite some of 'em. Leave Grims and Lubikka.

Red Faction...keep Capek, but most of them need cuts

Oh, I'm keeping all of them (for now). Even the Red Faction villains. I may just delay the swapping though.

edited 18th Apr '14 3:47:51 PM by ACW

About villains being "reprogrammed" to be good... do you think a character who started off good, then discarded all his good qualities over time to become an utter bastard, then was made good again through magic would be too much of a stretch to qualify? Believe it or not, I actually know of a character like that...

edited 18th Apr '14 5:17:45 PM by HamburgerTime

I don't see why not if they chose to turn evil, but not to turn good.

edited 18th Apr '14 5:22:28 PM by Camberf

Honestly, I could see them qualifying

I'm very iffy on this, but it's the original version of Seto Kaiba from the Yu-Gi-Oh! manga, who I'd say is almost as bad as Dark Marik. We all know his story: orphaned with his brother, his skill at gaming led him to be adopted by an evil rich man in his quest to provide for his brother. However, in the manga, it's elaborated that said evil rich man's method of raising him caused him to lose his affection for anything other than money and himself. Throughout the first, unadapted part of the manga, he does things like hiring former government assassins to kill Yugi's friends for the crime of beating him at a card game, giving Yugi's elderly grandfather a heart attack using his frighteningly realistic hologram system, hiring a serial killer who exclusively targets children as muscle, and finally trying to drive his brother insane when he fails him. In his final battle with Yugi, Yugi shatters his soul to pieces and rebuilds it from scratch, resulting in the Anti Heroic Kaiba we all know and love, but before that there's absolutely nothing good about him.

The thought of Kaiba of all characters on this page is really weird to me, but still, when you look at all he did...

Honestly, I can't see Kaiba there regardless. Yugi doesn't exactly Mind Rape him like that, he forces him to confront the emptiness in his heart and rebuild himself there.

I'm also . I think there's too many mitigating factors - His initial good intentions, Gozaburo's role, the implication that the Anti-Hero was always "in there somewhere" - but I just wanted to collect opinions.

I think that in this case the role that Gozaburo's abuse played ends up as a mitigating factor, seeing as manga!Gozaburo was a truly colossal psycho. If manga!Kaiba didn't have the Freudian Excuse, then underwent the reprogram that he does, I wouldn't really have an issue with it.

As an example of somebody who was reprogrammed to be good, Brainiac from Smallville is such a case. He was given a total overhaul by the Legion of Superheroes to become Brainiac 5. He still has all the old Brainiac's memories, but is in all other respects a totally different character.

I've thought about Kaiba before, and the thing is that he appears to hit the criteria for the trope all throughout the Death T arc, but then at the last minute we learn his Freudian Excuse and when you go back and read Kaiba's moments again it just fits way too perfectly, especially how Yami Yugi making him experience death as a penalty game for losing would set him off so badly given Gozaburo's suicide. So it's definitely a for him.

Agreed. Takahashi presumably had that backstory in mind from the point he decided Kaiba would be a Recurring Character. Like I said, mostly just collecting opinions.

Gozaburo's another one of those "disappointing near-misses," isn't he? IIRC the decision was that if his abuse of the brothers and his deeds in the Virtual World were in the same continuity, he'd qualify, but there's no indication he was abusive in the anime and the virtual World wasn't in the manga.

That is correct. Though even if both were present, there'd be the issue that Dark Marik and The Ring overshadow him both in terms of personal sadism and attempted bodycount.

edited 18th Apr '14 8:21:22 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar