Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

That's a decent argument for Dewey's inclusion. Like I said before, it's been a long long time since I've seen Eureka Seven.

On the subject of V.V. I suspect that he was put on the page for his sheer creepyness than his actual morality. He's not honestly that much more evil than Charles, but from what little I've seen replaces his brother's hammyness with classic Enfante Terrible freakyness, which makes him look worse.

The Suitengu and Hansel and Gretel examples have been cut. I'm wondering now about the rest of the Speed Grapher examples. All it says is that most of the minor villains count. That's not what I'd call real specific. I'd recommend cutting it; I'm just worried about someone than adding a flood of entries, one for every minor antagonist.

edited 18th Aug '12 1:34:25 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Ah V.V. I've seen Code Geass and I'd say that V2 should be kept. He has the Geass cult under him which performs experiments on children and adults (Like Jeramiah). Several, like Rolo, will die as a result of these procedures (He even calls Rolo nothing but a failed experiment). He claims to be trying to make the world a better place, and killed his brother's fiance because she distracted him. However, Marianne was in on, and contributing to their plan, so the murder seemed more out of spite than a well intentioned deed.

On the subject of V2 being creepy... well, he was creepy sometimes, with his monotone and childish stature, but in the end I didn't really pick up on that too often, so I can't really say (I thought Mao was creepier, and he's definitely not a CM).

EDIT: Even his love for his brother is called into question with the death of Marianne, and the constant manipulations behind the emperor's back.

I'd wait for counter argument though.

edited 18th Aug '12 6:07:59 PM by DrPsyche

None of the stuff you just mentioned is in the write up (or is gone into in such little detail as to be meaningless). This is what the page says:

• V.V. manipulates Suzaku to kill Zero by telling him about Geass and that he's responsible for Euphemia's massacring Japan. Then he kidnaps Nunnally and forces her to be part of the Britannia family again, which has quite the bad effects on the girl's psyche.
  • Here's the interesting atrocity that puts him in Moral Event Horizon: he killed Lelouch's mother Marianne purely out of petty jealousy and hid it from his father Charles. It finally gets his own twin brother, who was NOT an angel himself, to finally kill him after he has lost the battle with Lelouch. If you're making Emperor Charles look good, you're definately really bad.

Given the paragraphs above on Luciano Bradley, it doesn't really seem like much, does it? Anyway, I don't necessarily have objections to V.V. being on the page, but god he needs a better description. Could you (or another Code Geass fan) make one and post it here?

EDIT: Found another bad one.

"Legato Bluesummers, from Trigun. Legato's only purpose is to make Vash (the protagonist, The Messiah, a Love Freak and a master gunslinger for many years without yet ever having killed a single person), suffer, which he does with great ease and relish."

Once again, not saying he doesn't count. From what I've heard and seen of Trigun he definitely counts. But if that isn't one of the sorriest writeups ever done, I don't know what is.

edited 18th Aug '12 6:44:56 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Never watched Trigun, but I have heard A lot about Legato, and if that's all that the description says, then it definitely needs a clean up. I'd hesitate before fixing V2, see what anyone else says, I'd wait for any arguments against him being a CM.

EDIT: Here's a rough write up.

V.V. is the emperor's brother. He headed the Geass cult, and performed numerous experiments on children and unwitting adults. Among them was Rolo, who would later die as a result of these experiments. He justifies these experiments by claiming to be a Well-Intentioned Extremist, along with his brother. However, he continuously schemes behind his brothers back including murdering his brother's wife (and his sister in law) despite her being in one their great plan for "peace" out of spite. He continually pulls stunts, like manipulating Suzaku into killing Zero by revealing the truth about Geass. He later kidnaps Nunally and presses her back into the royal family, psychologically crippling Lelouch and manipulating her.

I should probably cut that down, anyone's thoughts?

edited 18th Aug '12 7:08:10 PM by DrPsyche

When I was first contemplating whether V.V. should be cut I asked a friend who was familiar with the series if he thought that Bradley or V.V. counted. Here's his response:

"Bradley definitely fits CM to a tee so no complaints there. VV... VV beyond killing Marianne because he's jealous of how much attention she gets from Charles, doesn't do anything else in himself that's monstrous. He's guilty by association of supporting Charles and Marianne's Assimilation Plot I suppose, but beyond that nothing much in and of himself. And this is a show where you can have some pretty complete monsters."

Now according to you, that's innacurate and V.V. does have some far greater crimes under his belt? From the sounds of things in your post he's fairly mad scientisty (seriously what is with that trope and overlapping with CM? If I took a shot everytime a I found a mad scientist on this page, I'd be riding a unicycle on my roof and thinking it was a great idea.)?

Oh and earlier on I wasn't saying he should be on the page because he's creepy. I was suggesting that someone might have put him on the page simply because he creeped them out. It's happened often enough.

edited 18th Aug '12 7:28:40 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I suppose sacrificing Human lives For Science! is pretty common in fiction and shows a Lack of Empathy.

You are right about people including characters that they find creepy, and I just mentioned it to show I was being impartial.

V.V. is master of the cult, before it tanked, before that it was C.C. who I think might have created it.

I would question his own ambitions with the world, but the experiments on people are what cinch it for me.

The motive for axing Marianne always seemed petty, and useless (Nay, counterproductive) to his alleged Well-Intentioned Extremist ideals, that I don't consider him one.

I don't know if he was guilt by association to the plot, as it was his and Charle's idea in the first place, he just died before it was completed.

edited 18th Aug '12 7:20:42 PM by DrPsyche

What kind of experiments on people are we talking about, and how extreme? I take it from what you've said that they were not volunteers (mad scientists never seem to get anyone to sign a goddamn waiver, do they?)?

This Geass Cult thing...is that his little science project or is it an actual cult? Also if a supposedly sympathetic character like C.C. ran it before hand, does that make it CM material?

"I would question his own ambitions with the world, but the experiments on people are what cinch it for me."

I take it says/does something to indicate that he's got his own plans for when they run the world? Or is that just gut instinct on your part? As for the Well-Intentioned Extremist part, I've gathered that he's left that particular trope behind him in the dust, but does he cross the line from actual selfish villain into CM? And what exactly is it that makes you suspect he doesn't really give a damn about Charles?

edited 18th Aug '12 7:35:54 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

The experiments are never really, specified, other than they do things to children which are bad, but all science that would be presented sounds wonky.

Jerimiah gets many parts of his body removed and replaced with machines, including his eye, which becomes the Geass canceler. The scientists just found him on the side of the road and took him away. Rolo's upbringing made him into an unstable tyke bomb who's only purpose was to kill, but whether he killed under V.V. or the empire in general is left vague. It is mentioned that whenever he uses his Geass, his heart stops, and using it too often got him killed.

The Geass cult is both a science and a cult, to the best of my knowledge.

C.C.'s time as director isn't well explained in the series, but I read that she wanted to study it, possibly to die, as she is a death seeker, but that is just a guess.

To the best of my knowledge, V.V. was more into the mad experiments.

As for his own plans, and caring about Charles, that was kind of ambiguous. A big promise he made to Charles was that neither would tell lies, but he lied several times to his brother, so that brings their relationship into question. Charles does kill him, but that's irrelevant in how V.V. felt about him. V2's murder of Charles' wife (and especially the reasons for doing so) is what made me question their relationship even more.

Their big plan about the world is a cross between Evangelion (Fusing all minds together) and The Anti-Life equation (Removing free will). It's completion isn't likely to grant ulterior motives (Though perhaps the one who initiated it has more control, that is just my guess, so don't take that as canon)

The biggest argument against V.V. is arguing that he is still a Well-Intentioned Extremist despite these incidents.

EDIT: That promise he made to charles, that was the "Contract" that one goes into when they receive a Geass, when they talk to one with a code (allowing them to give Geass and live forever), who gives them their power, under stipulations.

edited 20th Aug '12 11:37:23 AM by DrPsyche

I’m sorry man, but there's a lot of speculation there. V.V. may have lied to Charles to manipulate him, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t a Well-Intentioned Extremist. He may see the lies, as well as his experiments, as necessary evils. I mean, Lelouch himself engineers a few massacres and justifies it to himself in the grand scheme of his plans. Code Geass is a series that runneth over with incredibly brutal well-intentioned extremists, so, in order to be a Complete Monster in the show, a character needs to be doing evil things for clearly evil reasons, like Bradley. With so much vagueness surrounding the Cult and V.V.’s motivations/character, I just don’t think V.V. can safely be qualified as a Complete Monster.

As for Legato Bluesummers, I’m about halfway through watching the Trigun anime now. If nobody’s done a rewrite for him by then (and if I think he actually counts), then I’ll offer a new write-up for him once I finish the series. From what I hear, in the manga Legato is a somewhat sympathetic, though still very dark, Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, while in the anime version he’s just an Omnicidal Maniac, so we'll see.

edited 18th Aug '12 9:12:24 PM by OccasionalExister

Point.

You say, that he may consider this action to be necessary; that is also speculation

However, you are right, as the reasons to disqualify can be speculated, but the to keep, must be set in stone.

I can't see a good reason to murder a willing ally, but no reason was presented beyond a contradictory one, so we can argue intent all we want, but that doesn't make the reasons apparent/canon

Unless they reveal more machinations in the other series, since that hasn't come out yet, we work with what we've got.

On Legato, from what I've read about the manga, he was molested as a child right?

edited 18th Aug '12 9:44:36 PM by DrPsyche

Yes, in the manga he was a child Sex Slave who was saved by Knives and loved/became devoted to him as a result. He's still sadistic but he has reasons for his actions. From what I hear, these traits have been removed from the anime.

this kind of makes me think of Junior from Secret Six. She endured child abuse under a truly evil father. However, the severity of her actions makes people disqualify her Freudian Excuse

edited 19th Aug '12 12:28:53 AM by DrPsyche

Did we ever swap in the Harry Potter Monsters sandbox for the actual page? It remains unlocked and is way more natter-filled than the cleanup we all agreed on.

edited 19th Aug '12 4:41:11 PM by LargoQuagmire

If no one objects, I'll go ahead and do it now.

Thank you nrjxll

I'm going to cut Devil Ray from the DC comics section. I haven't heard any objections about him in the cartoon. Even if he was a complete monster, I'd still delete him from the comics page, as he is an animated series character, and not a comics one (That would be Black Manta, but this discussion wasn't about him, so I'm not cutting him)

Any more feedback on Arkillo? The responses I've heard indicate more toward cutting him.

edited 19th Aug '12 7:45:49 PM by DrPsyche

And... done. Should the page be locked now?

Probably.

Nice job.

I agree.

edited 19th Aug '12 9:24:57 PM by DrPsyche

I seriously want to bring back the discussion on whether or not to keep Katjina Loos. Especially since Ambar Sonof Deshar clearly hasn't watched the series or even attempted to see why she qualifies. And especially since the 'discussion' was only cut since there were too many people talking on OTHER Complete Monsters.

Katejina is a Complete Monster due to her complete selfishness. She's the living embodiment of 'It's All About Me'. She is a complete and utter sociopath as well, she literally gets sick when Empathy was forced upon her by Shakti. She also has the highest body count of any personal Gundam Antagonist, killing all the members of the Shrike Team and Odelo. Nevermind the very author considered that she was irredeemable, and that death is too good for her.

Having actually watched the show, there are zero redeeming qualities about her. In the beginning she was still a rather bad person who jumped to join Zanscare at the first opportunity. She really didn't even care for Chronicle either, if anything she was using him through their entire interaction with each other.

Instead of deleting the article, why don't you read it first to judge what she's done, Ambar Sonof Deshar.

edited 19th Aug '12 10:15:59 PM by SuperSaiyaMan

For some reason just your attitude alone makes me want to discount your point of view.

The example was cut because quite frankly it's a terribly written article. Instead of throwing it back up while being needlessly rude to Ambar, why don't you try offering a re-write here?

NOTE: If you add it back on again that will count as an edit war and I'll holler for a mod. It was cut for a reason and you're failing to address that reason.

edited 20th Aug '12 12:15:13 AM by Shaoken

I agree with Shaoken, try addressing the point that Ambar had, and let's try to keep this a little more civil. Try to be more objective and focus more on the reasons why the example counts.

Discounting the point of view based on his attitude defeats the purpose of us trying to be objective. I do agree with you on the rewrite proposal though.

edited 20th Aug '12 12:52:30 AM by DrPsyche

Almost discounting. I did have a proper reaction to his views but I deleted it for being a bit too negative. From what I gathered he thinks that Katjina should count because:

• She's selfish
• She killed the most named characteres
• Word of God was that she was irredeamable

That's it. That doesn't make a Complete Monster.

Okay, you make a good point, the reasons don't hold clout as they were developed, and will continue not to, unless they are expanded upon.

Also, thank you for clarifying your point, as I said, you discount the argument for more objective reasons, and I cannot fault you for making your point.

edited 20th Aug '12 1:31:14 AM by DrPsyche

First, just as a general heads-up - as I'm sure folks have noticed, I've been participating less of late in this cleanup. That's partly due to Real Life getting busy (nothing bad, but still time-consuming), and partly inadvertently starting a second Special Efforts cleanup (I'm sure those actually interested can check my posting history to figure out which one). So I will probably miss stuff to comment about; please don't take it personally.

For V.V. of Code Geass - is there absolutely any reason to doubt the claims that he is a Well-Intentioned Extremist? I mean something actually solid, and not just Alternate Character Interpretation (no matter how valid it may be)? You'll need to conclusively show that it's the case. Not just "they never denied it, so it must be true."

One major part of what we're trying to do is come up with only the ones concretely shown to be Complete Monster material; not just the ones that have the potential to be one.

As for Katjina Loos - as we've said, we didn't have anyone arguing for her inclusion, but we'd reconsider if someone wants to break down both that she was heinous in the standards of the show and had no redeeming qualities/shot at redemption. Those were the reasons she was cut before. If there are reasons we erred before, I'm listening.

To the guy who wants to put Katejina back on, I freely admit that I haven't seen the show. At the time that she was being recommended for cutting, I actually asked the Gundam forum if anyone could justify her inclusion. No one succeeded in convincing me, or the rest of the forum. I have no objections to her being included, but if her supporters can't convince the forum, she probably doesn't belong.

Regarding your logic, I get that she's horribly, horribly selfish. That's pretty clear. But what atrocities does she commit? Killing a bunch of main characters might qualify her for Hero Killer status, but it doesn't mean she belongs here. Katejina's a UC villain. She inhabits a universe where the standards for evil are being set by the likes of Gihren Zabi and Bask Om. What does she do that pushes her into CM territory?