During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Merge actually. Like we mention that he took the alias Mag Mel after he lost at the end of season 3.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I caught your edit and edited my own accordingly. I agree that Naga and Cordegon should go. Did we have enough votes to do that at the time?
Can anyone else do the merging there?
Cut Isla, The Guilty Crown Superior and Akakabuto unless someone explains them for us.
I never realized the original examples were all on the Main anime subpage, so it went out of my mind to check.
Paireon and Occasional Exister voted to cut everyone but Barodius/Mag Mel and Zenoheld, which were also my votes.
edited 9th Oct '13 8:28:44 PM by VeryMelon
Add me to that
Funny thing about that Lightysnake. I saw a post of yours voting to Keep Coredragon back in February.
Y'don't say? Well, I'll take a reversal then and defer to the judgment of the guys who know the series.
I'll rewrite the Robot Romance Trilogy ones
No, the other one.
@Exister & Ambar: Are you done with your sniping, or do you want to continue attacking and insulting me? I honestly don't get why you interpreted my original post as an attack of any kind. It's not what it was meant as, so please don't construe it as such.
Check out my fanfiction!
I vote for Todd.
Curb your paranoia. No one has attacked you or insulted you. You on the other hand, were unpleasant to Very Melon, and did launch a full on ad hominem when you called me an ass.
As Sophia notes—there was nothing in Very Melon's post, or my post, that warranted your behaviour. You don't like us being "snide"? Then stop being outright rude.
@Lightysnake
Look forward to those rewrites. If others could please offer opinions on some of those anime examples, I would appreciate it. Does anyone recall if had an actual consensus to cut Legato?
No, the other one.
I'd say cut Legato.
Okay, so awhile back I brought up The Batman entries but no one had seen the show, so I'm looking at the episodes where the Joker, Black Mask, and Zucco appear.
This show is... weird. I can see why a lot of people hate it. And WTF is up with Joker's hair?! Or as I like to call him, Joker the Hedgehog.
Okay I'm done ranting...
Anyway, so far Joker seems like a keeper (shocking, right?). The only thing that concerns me is this scene. In the episode, Batman uses a device from Hugo Strange to enter Joker's mind to find out where he's hiding a hostage and there's this brief part where he meets pre-acid dip Joker who almost reveals where the hostage is but then current-Joker stops him.
I don't know, would Joker's former self seemingly existing in his subconscious mean anything?
Never problem with Angel/Angelus, was it?
Yeah, that scene seems more like another reason Joker would count for this trope. And having seen The Batman while it was airing as a kid, I feel Black Mask is the only other contender.
I actually didn't mind that show. Anyway, Joker definitely qualifies.
Having just watched some of Trigun, I can add my vote to those saying Legato does not qualify. He's ultimately loyal to Knives, and is more a clinically depressed mess than anything else. He also doesn't kill nearly as many people as I thought he would (more often than not, he's casting an illusion of dead people just to torment Vash). Couple that with an excellent argument Occasional Exister made on page 121, and I think he should go.
Searching back through the thread, I've found votes from Occasional Exister, Native Jovian, and maybe Hodor, to cut. Throw in my vote, Very Melon's vote, and Lightysnake's and we have enough to cut. I'm going to burn it now, because it's been an eyesore for too long.
EDIT: I've requested Legato be cut from the anime subpage and have removed him from the YMMV page for Trigun. A search of the forum shows his removal was first brought up on page 93, again at 121, again at 393, a dozen or so pages back on a sweep of the anime page, and now. Excuse me while I take a moment to feel good about finally doing something about it.
edited 9th Oct '13 10:33:17 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I don't think it's awful, just weird.
Yes, I thought it was weird too. Jackie Chan Adventures weird. I liked the show more when I realized that.
Speaking of Batman examples, was it decided to cut the Batman: The Brave and the Bold entries?
Also, weirdly...Idi Amin isn't on the Film subpage, Here's his writeup from YMMV.The Last King Of Scotland
- Amin eventually turns out to be one. Note "turns out to be", not "becomes"- as his wife Kay says, he was always a bastard; he just didn't let Nicholas see it until it was too late. He turns Uganda into a police state quickly after he becomes president even though he only came to power to overthrow a previous dictator, starts massive death campaigns to weed out all opposition and dissent, manipulates Nicholas into staying and eventually keeping him hostage as his personal pet, orders people to be gruesomely murdered at the slightest whim... It can't even be said that he cares about anyone but himself despite being a family man. He shows no affection for his wifes, he seems to see his children only as his legacy, and the aforementioned Nicholas is bullied and blackmailed by him for his personal amusement
Apparition in the Woods
@Ambar: I would agree with that ruling on Legato. He is a deeply disturbing character with motives that take a lot of reading between the lines to parse, but ultimately he is defined by his unfailing loyalty to his master just as much as he is defined by his cruelty. And really, if we were to let subtextual stuff like the cannibalism thing in, we would also have to take into account why he hates humanity, which is probably enough to disqualify him on its own...
I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.
There is no Planet B
Hi guys, I forgot to request that Monster.The X Files be locked when the sub-page was set up.
Somebody added an entry and as far as I checked, it was not brought up in this discussion.
- Phyllis Paddock/Azazel/whatever the hell she is in "Die Hand Die Verletzt". A high-level demon, her first onscreen appearance (albeit not fully seen) involves her lifting a teenage boy into the air by his neck before brutally murdering him, all because he was unfortunate enough to have accidentally summoned her. From there, she spends most of the episode tricking Mulder and Scully into doing a good deal of her work for her, which results in the horrific death of an unfaithful believer of hers by being devoured alive by a python familiar. What really pushes her over the edge, however, is her compelling an innocent teenage girl to kill herself for no reason other than because her father was one of her lapsed believers, even though she wanted nothing to do with it. Oh, and the reason she did everything that she did boiled down to her being pissed about the town's cultists moving away from some of the more brutal and cruel rites associated with her worship in a spectacular display of Evil Is Petty. Really, the only remotely redeeming thing about her is that she saves Mulder and Scully from being killed by the remaining cultists, who thought that sacrificing them would get her off their asses, by compelling one of them to murder the other two before blowing his own head off. Plenty of villains and MOTWs have done worse things, but she has them all beat for sheer petty, needless cruelty.
I haven't watched the episode for a long time, but I'm not sure if she was portrayed as somebody responsible for their deeds and willingly doing them (probably she was, even though she was a demon). However, the write-up itself mentions her saving Mulder and Scully is redeemable, so that should lean her into a cut.
I'm on the fence.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
More thoughts on combining Visual Novels and Video Games?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I would support that.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
edited 9th Oct '13 8:13:23 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar