During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I am not sure if Hopper fails, I kind of doubt it. I still think that Lotso is a better example, and his excuse, well I think that it is definetly not enough to negate his CM status. I wouldn't even call it a Freudian Excuse. I would call it sad story that does not explain his actions. Many toys have been abandoned by their owners in the film. But they did not do what Lotso did.
edited 7th Jul '12 7:42:05 AM by Krystoff
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Than why have the line at all? If they really wanted him to be a CM, why give him a brother at all? Why mention his relationship with his mother? The directors considered it important enough to include, and regardless of its ambiguity, the line is still there in the final cut of the film. The whole point of what we're doing here is to have only clear-cut examples with no ambiguity. If we include Hopper we're setting a bad precedent of ignoring our own criteria in favour of "everybody hates him." A villain can be terrifying and utterly loathesome and still not qualify for this trope.
EDIT: Lotso's excuse is never used to justify his actions. It's brought up the one time and then more or less forgotten. It's used as an explanation, not a justification, and is negated by the time he tries to kill the very toys who helped him.
edited 7th Jul '12 9:02:07 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
edited 7th Jul '12 12:25:09 PM by HiddenFacedMatt
"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
Avatar by Leafsnake
Okay, I'm back on board the keep Hopper on the page train now. That line creates more ambiguity rather than a good personality trait. Also, The Mad Doctor and True Shadow Blot's disscussion seemed to not go anywhere, are we just going to keep them, because I heard not counter arguments (Also I'm not just introducing these guys to the discussion, I think we never got a verdict on them).
1. We are not talking about them now.
2. They are already out.
3. I think that you might be correct that the line of more of a ambiguity than a true good personality trait. I think that unless we really know what was the meaning of this, Hopper qualifies.
edited 7th Jul '12 1:08:19 PM by Krystoff
Avatar by Leafsnake
I just brought those two up because they were debated, and then new characters were introduced, and they were forgotten (Hah!). I'm going to assume the verdict was to stay, as they are still there.
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
And perhaps part of the reason people forgot they were talking about them was because this conversation was all over the place. I saw the same kind of thing happen over and over again in the Disney CM thread and I think the solution is to make these discussions more organized.
The verdict was actually to cut them. They were on Video Games page. Are they still there?
Avatar by Leafsnake
They are still on the Disney CM page, and still on the YMMV page for Epic Mickey.
Again, sorry to bring those two up, but I was told that we need to finish discussing one topic before we more on to another, and the fact that they are still on some pages made me think we never finished discussing them.
I can easily removed them from Epic Mickey YMMV page, but with Disney CM page, it can be a problem. I will request the mods to remove The Mad Doctor and they will confuse him with the mad doctor from the original short (who is decidedly a CM) and cut the wrong character.
Avatar by Leafsnake
I know this might be a bit irrelevant, but I have a hard time Molt even survived to the timeframe of A Bug's Life, given how Hopper treats him with disgust and violence throughout the whole movie. Occasional Exister also brings up the more important point: Hopper is a mass murderer of ants, grasshoppers, etc. Within the Pixar Canon, only Muntz can match that killing record, and Muntz has the very real excuses of insanity, Values Dissonance in the academic community, and old age to account for, none of which Hopper has. One line - where Hopper basically justifies himself punching the next closest guy in the face by saying "your dead mom's saving your life right now", which I have a hard time accepting as an example of Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas, as opposed to the dark threat that it is - really shouldn't preclude him from being a CM.
"your dead mom's saving your life right now", which I have a hard time accepting as an example of Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas, as opposed to the dark threat that it is - really shouldn't preclude him from being a CM."
How is it a dark threat? He's saying "I'd kill you, but I promised mom I wouldn't." His mom's dead. There's nothing holding him to that promise anymore, yet he continues to keep it despite that. We've seen him actually kill underlings that fail him. His refusal to do the same to Molt highlights the fact that his word to his mother actually means something to him.
Avatar by Leafsnake
I think I can get the gist of the arguments.
- Ambar Sonof Deshar, you are saying that Hopper's line prevents him from being a CM. His promise to his mom is what keeps his brother alive, he respects her enough to keep that promise, and not kill his brother. You emphasize the promise to mom part of the phrase.
- Largo Quagmire, your saying that Hopper is a CM. He kills ants and probably would have killed his very own brother if not for a phrase he mentioned which might have been only been sarcasm. You emphasize the I would have killed you, my brother, part of the phrase.
I think that sums it up pretty well. The reason I support the first point of view is because of my views on Complete Monster - it's something we need to prove that characters are, not that they aren't, so the existence of any possible good point is what I'll emphasize.
He either respects his mom enough to keep his word, makes it a policy to keep his word, or both. That seems to me to be a fairly serious strike against the "complete" part of the phrase. We've certainly cut people for less.
Yes, that's my point, the emphasis of the phrase isn't respecting his mother, but impressing upon Molt just how close he is to getting his head squished. Also, he murders grasshoppers as well, assuming that the ones he dumped all the seeds on didn't survive that avalanche, but that's really neither here nor there in the argument.
edited 7th Jul '12 10:37:04 PM by LargoQuagmire
On Hopper, it boils down to the "Complete" part of the trope name. As in 100%. Hopper apparantly loved/respected his mother enough to honour a promise after death, which while not a 1% of goodness, is still enough to disqualify them. A true complete monster would say "I promised mom I wouldn't kill you. *beat* She's dead now." And then kill him. Or to be more appropriate, a CM would make that promise to the mother and break it anyway.
Sorry to interrupt you discussions about Hopper, but since we are talking about Disney and Pixar villains i want to discuss Dr. Slicer from Recess animated series
Dr.Slicer: From the episode "Prickley Is Leaving" watch here
- The character is truly heinous by the standards of the story, which makes no attempt to present the character in any positive way: Dr. Slicer is portrayed as frightening and evil person and is played seriously in every scene he is in, with no trace of comedy. He is said to be "the strictest, meanest, toughest administrator in the whole entire district" and scary music plays then he appears. Most ntagonists in the series are either jerks and mere annoyances (like Randall, Lawson, The Ashleys and etc), well intentioned extremists or knight templars, who wanted good for school and meant well despite their methods and thought that they were doing right thing (like Prickley, Finster, Tad White from " The Story of Whomps" episode and Taking The Fifht Grade) and were shown to have sympathethic and redeeming traits on many ocassions. This isn't the case with Slicer, who was never shown wanting good for school and instead wanted to turn it into his personal military base, where students would be treated like lifeless soldiers, instead of kids with emotions. In fact, he saw any form of emotion as weakness and mocked T.J after he said that he will miss Prickley and treated Finster horribly when she defended T.J. Also in one scene he said that he wants to make cannon in the school operational, implying that he was going to actually use it. And the episode pretty much implied that if Slicer took control ot the school, it would be hell.
- The character's terribleness is played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and hatred from the other characters in the story: Slicer is played straight, with no traces of parody or comedy to him. Everyone was scared by him, most notably T.J. That's right T.J, who was never afraid to stand up against adults, was downright terrified by Slicer and was unable to stand up against Slicer. Finster was also disgusted with Slicer and it was implied that Prickley didn't leave the school because he was repulsed by Slicer's treatent of his students.
- They are completely devoid of altruistic qualities. They show no regret for their crimes: Dr. Slicer isn't show to have any sympathethic traits and was not remorseful for being so cruel towards everyone.
Personally, i think he qualifies for this trope, by being so nasty towards everyone and being played very seriously and having no noble motive for his actions. All other villains in the series were either jerks or had good intentions but employed bad methods, but Dr. Slicer is unsympathethic person, who only cares for power, control and himself.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
read below what I said.
edited 8th Jul '12 3:10:05 AM by MONEYMONEY
I have seen the episode, and he is definetly not a Complete Monster. He is simply a Jerkass (more extreme than other characters but still). Even his fate proves that he is not a real CM. A CM would either be killed, taken by the police in such a lighthearted series or a Karma Houdini. So I can be certain that he doesn't count.
Now lets go back to Hopper before discussing anyone else.
And sorry for the post above, but I was using different computer on which I am still known as MONEYMONEY ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
edited 8th Jul '12 3:16:25 AM by Krystoff
Dr. Slicer is nowhere near a monster, let alone a complete one. He's a Jerkass, but nothing he's done would fit on a CM page.
The only character from Recess that ever came close to become a CM (even in this case, I am doubtful and I would carefully discuss it first) is Dr. Benedict.
- Dr. Phillium Benedict from Recess Schools Out. He wants to create pernament winter( creating another ice age) and bringing The End of the World as We Know It and end summer vacation and recess forever, just to raise test scores. His Even Evil Has Standards moment (where he says that he doesn't like violence) made him big Hypocrite, because he has no problem hurting or killing people to accomplish his goals (it's heavily implied he sent one of his henchman to torture or death for failing him, which he dubbed "detention".) Making him the only people who is implied to have killed anyone.
So he MIGHT be one, but I am very doubtful.
We will discuss him too, but lets go back to Hopper first.
edited 8th Jul '12 5:34:38 AM by Krystoff
Besides, for all we know he may have refrained from killing his brother because it might have backfired on him personally, whether from fellow grasshoppers or the ants being indignant enough to resist his rule.
The moment in question is 2 minutes 22 seconds in, though for context it is best to start at 2 minutes in. Even if it is an Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas moment, it is a very brief one, and still manages to sound brutal. As others have said, it is just a throwaway line, hardly that significant in the overall portrayal of the character, especially in light of the ambiguity in interpreting it.
Also, it sounds like he was about to kill his brother either over interrupting him, or over mentioning in front of ants that birds eat grasshoppers, which is something Hopper knows could weaken his dictatorial grip on the ants. (Though the audience doesn't know that until later in the movie.) Still though, even the latter seems like an awfully weak reason for murder.
As for Lotso, I agree his excuse is weak, but again, the question is whether or not it is still enough to negate CM status.
Anyway, I'm not going to comment on other characters until the discussion of Hopper and Lotso is done.
edited 7th Jul '12 6:51:40 AM by HiddenFacedMatt
"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart