Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Yep,go ahead.

John Farson is a definite contender, btw.

This runs us into an issue, btw, as Flagg and Walter O'Dim are the same person. I'm not sure about the comic canonicity though. Furthermore, his actions in the books contradict it, and even in the first comic, he's shown as being hideously abusive toward her now that I look (Making certain Roland sees their affair to humiliate her and then beats her when she apologizes to him)).

Overall, I think he's done too much over the course of the actual novels, but delete him for the comics

edited 30th Jun '13 10:58:39 AM by Lightysnake

6 left.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

@14290: Good write-ups for the Riddick examples.

@14292: Malware was brought up once or twice, but we never officially confirmed him. In fact whenever someone did comment on him it was usually a "no." Dr. Psyche, Footsteps, Paireon and myself all gave no votes. Dr. Psyche gave a good run down of the character here if anyone's interested.

@14300: Having just finished the book a few weeks ago I can say Leland Gaunt definitely counts. He never directly gets his hands dirty but the plan he sets in motion would lead to nearly everyone in town killing each other. He also succeeds in having two of his goons blow up most of the town with explosives, and steals the souls of everyone who dies after doing business with him. His thoughts reveal he's been doing this for centuries and he doesn't even need the souls he collects anymore. He just does it because it's fun.

@14305: Yeah Flagg's the same guy in every book. I believe it's a Multiverse thing.

@14308: As lighty says, Walter o'Dim is the same guy as Randall Flagg. I agree with lighy on disqualifying him from the comics if he loves Roland's mother, but he should not be disqualified from the books. After all, Stephen King's not the one writing those comics. In the past when Tigerstar and Scourge from Warrior Cats were given prequel mangas which gave them sympathetic and redeeming qualities, we never disqualified them from the original series because they never displayed these qualities there. Likewise with the Governor from The Walking Dead; in a prequel novel he was given redeeming qualities, but they were never displayed within the actual comics themselves. Also, back when there was an argument going on about whether Emperor Palpatine was a Well-Intentioned Extremist in the Expanded Universe, it was decided that even if he was revealed to be a WIE (he wasn't), it would not result in him being removed from the film page as a CM. The reason why we never disqualified the characters from the original series was, I believe, because the side materials were of a dubious canon and contained retcons, and it was determined these should not influence our opinions on how characters from the original, self-contained series were seen.

edited 30th Jun '13 12:31:30 PM by OccasionalExister

Ah, so Gaunt's one of those For the Evulz villains it seems.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

But in what why do they "care"? That's the key factor. If it's it's a case of family loyalty or sexuality rather than love it get's kinda questionable if it's a sympathetic quality.

Anway, on the Hitman examples I brought up?

edited 30th Jun '13 12:46:11 PM by shoboni

I need to say no to Skurkey for now, but I'll give a yes to Blake Dexter if he doesn't really care for his son

Speaking of Tigerstar, shouldn't he be disqualified from the original series regardless because he cares about his son and daughter? I think there's a line in The Darkest Hour that states he cares about his children, which is a redeeming quality.

edited 30th Jun '13 1:13:10 PM by Klavice

Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.

I think Ambar already addressed that some time ago.

Ok, Rosario to vampire...there's an entry that's almost definitely going to count very shortly, but I'll wait till the end of this arc to make sure. Gyokuro Shuzen can be updated for sure

Having played the game I can safely say he cares for his son, he keeps his room exactly the same as it was when he left, he's worried that nobody can find him, and during their second face-to-face encounter his son is really all he asks 47 about.

edited 30th Jun '13 1:47:22 PM by Shaoken

All I noticed was that one scene, and he seemed more PO'd by the principal than upset he lost his son, same with his wife. Even in his last moments all he could think about was his money.

edited 30th Jun '13 3:12:21 PM by shoboni

Someone mentioned Ben 10 earlier; is it dark enough to have a CM? I've only seen a few episodes due to it coming on just as my interest in cartoons was starting to wane, but it seemed pretty similar in tone to Jackie Chan to me, just sci-fi instead of fantasy.

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."

I remember a few scenes, both with and without 47 present, where he expresses concern about his son's safety, so I'd say it's proof enough that he does care.

Besides, he's not that henious by this work's standards. We have plenty of killers, kidnappers, torturers etc. etc. This guy doesn't really stand out compared to say, the Meat King's brother, other members of The Franchise who have a much larger bodycount, etc. etc.

We should hammer it out. Who from the Hitman series does count?

Short answer; no one. It's Black-and-Black Morality with the protagonist having no issues with killing anyone if he gets paid for it and no target standing out from the crowd who has their heinous acts onscreen

I dunno I think the Meat King and his brother could

The problem with both of them is that we only find a corpse after the fact, so it falls under Offscreen Villainy. The same goes for most villains in the series.

With the approval in the last few pages, I'll be adding the Riddick examples to the edit request thread and the work pages in a day or so.

---

Sons of Anarchy seems to have a lot of bad examples.

• Complete Monster:
  • Ethan Zobelle and A.J. Weston of the Aryans in season two. Said to the leader of another Neo-Nazi gang: "You'd better hide that (swastika tattoo) away. You didn't earn it." The fact that this guy didn't earn the right to show affiliation with the Nazis really says it all.
  • The last two episodes of season three put Agent Stahl into that category.
  • Clay Morrow in season four. First he gets the club involved with a ruthless Mexican drug cartel, then he murders Piney, gives the cartel the okay to kill Tara to protect his secrets and viciously beats Gemma after she finds out about the latter.
  • Damian Pope, who in the season 5 premiere forces Tig to watch as his daughter is burned alive.

This series is a Criminal Procedural reality drama with very dark anti-heroic / villainous protagonists who are all criminals, corrupt law enforcement, or part of crime syndicates, so characters have to be pretty heinous to even qualify. The problem with this work is that almost all the gang members of whatever affiliation are shown petting the dog or to have loved ones at some point. It virtually never portrays a total psychopath with no redeeming features at all. The tropers who added these examples also seem to confuse the CM character with the Moral Event Horizon, thinking that the latter automatically means the former.

Aside from the general lack of context issues, here's why I think they disqualify for CM status:

• The Aryans example is already a group of two, so they'd have to qualify individually. They both fail on the loved ones criteria; Ethan Zobelle has a daughter whom he cares about, and A.J. Weston has a sympathetic talk with his little kid in his last scene.

• Agent Stahl is largely a sociopath, but she shows remorse when she accidentally gets a woman killed in season 1. She does cross the Moral Event Horizon when she sacrifices one of her lovers to sell a particular story to the authorities in late season 3, but the fact that she's actually remorseful of some of her actions disqualifies her from being a CM.

• Gang leader Clay Morrow is not a CM. He's a fairly complex character, but he never does evil simply for the sake of it. He's in Even Evil Has Standards (e.g. he castrates a child rapist in season 1) and Even Evil Has Loved Ones (loves his wife Gemma, and his "brothers" and Jax to a lesser extent) territory. Even after he crossed the MEH in season 4, he still tries to get his seperated wife Gemma back in season 5, and seems to genuinely love her in spite of what he did to her and is trying to seek her forgiveness.

• Gang leader Damien Pope burns Tig's daughter alive in one of his first scenes, but he didn't do this because he was so evil, but as an eye for an eye retribution for Tig being responsible for killing his daughter, indicating he has loved ones.

The only character from that series that could potentially qualify is Real IRA gang leader Jimmy O'Phelan, who from what I remember gets no redeeming qualities at all, doesn't love the family he stole from someone else, and isn't portrayed as anything other than a complete scumbag in his appearances. I'd need to check the series again to confirm that one, though.

edited 1st Jul '13 6:48:13 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

I added a few annotations to my King post.

edited 1st Jul '13 8:34:02 AM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

@Shoa.

47 is actually made much more sympathetic and anti-hero like in Absolution. He even shows disgust with some of the targets and feels remorse for having to kill Diana. He's also become quite fond of the girl almost to the extent of Papa Wolf by the end of his character arc.

I'm mainly mention Absolution because the villains actually have some characterization, something lacking in the others.

on all the Sons Of Anarchy examples.

edited 1st Jul '13 11:34:39 AM by VeryMelon

On Hitman. I don't really view seeing you with the mutilated corpse of someone you murdered yourself as 'offscreen villainy'. That's seeing the aftermath, not having it as informed ability.

As far as Sons Of Anarchy...we should probably look at O'Phelan, but Stahl can probably stick about. While she does initially show remorse, she goes deeper into the dark side and loses that until Season 3 when she's a solid CM

Speaking of works with very dark protagonists, I've seen the occasional person around the Wiki wanting to add Elliot Stabler, protagonist of Law And Order SVU, to the CM list. I wouldn't vote in favor of him in a million years, but on the flipside I can sort of see where these people are coming from; it's actually been argued in the series that his rage issues make him little better than the crooks he catches (he just thankfully knows how to redirect them into people who deserve it), and while he does have many good qualities they come across as pretty hypocritical fairly often.

This is not a vote in favor of him, just a random musing on why people might think he qualifies.

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."

I never actually saw enough of SVU (I much prefer NCIS and Criminal Minds) to form a solid opinion on Stabler, but the episodes I did see seemed to paint him as a Cowboy Cop with a heart of gold.

Shamelessly plugging my comics, Oh yes.

I'm sorry I've been off my game, everyone. I've been bar studying and that has taken a lot out of me. Time to bounce back a bit, though.

First order of business: The Being Human examples need to be swapped out with their YMMV examples

Secondly. Croup and Vandemar and Islington writeups:

• Neil Gaiman sure does write terrifying villains. His Neverwhere has three (or two, depending on how you look at it.)
  • First are 'Messires Croup and Vandemar' the resident monsters for hire of the London Below. Croup himself sums the duo up best when he cheerily remarks "we have no redeeming features." Croup and Vandemar seem one beast split into two bodies, Croup as the brains and Vandemar as the brawn, but both are wildly sadistic and cruel. A man who fails to perform his tasks is set upon by Croup and hacked to pieces (and impliedly devoured by him). The two murder heroine Door's entire family and when her ally, the Marquis, tries to negotiate with them, they capture him and torture him for nothing more than entertainment. They give him a head start though...with Vandemar stalking after him, gleefully counting down the time to savor the hunt even more
  • The second is the angel Islington.A being drunk on its own glory and vanity, Islington was originally tasked with watching over Atlantis. When pressed on how Atlantis really sank, Islington's normally beautiful, serene features are replaced by a mask of fury as it shrieks They deserved it!. Islington is the one who commissioned Croup and Vandemar to murder Door's family and manipulated Door to him so she could open the gates of heaven, allowing Islington to conquer his kin and exact revenge out of nothing more than spite for his exile

Third: Babylon 5. Enough of my slacking. I'm on this.

I know I say this pretty much every week about some shonen villain or other, but I think Obito needs to go. His flashback after Kakashi defeats him indicates he did love Rin, and Madara using him for the... jutsu thing seems to be painted as Alas, Poor Villain.

Again, sorry I keep saying things like this, but Kishimoto, Oda, and Kubo all really love them some sad villain flashbacks.

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."