During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Didn't Dagmer and his men just leave Theon after Dagmer gutted Lewin? It seems to me that they might have just knocked him out and left him for the Northerners
Cleric of Banjo
I forget. Hmm. In any case though, the entry is wrong in suggesting that they a) turned him over to Ramsay Bolton or b) turned him over to Ramsay Bolton with full-knowledge that Ramsay's a psycho.
I am pretty sure though that Damgar and co. probably bumped into Ramsay on the way out and the encounter did not go well for them- but I'll have to see what happens in the show.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Yeah, minor point. We should cut Dagmer's entry regardless
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'm seeing Iron Man 3 today; I'll let you know if he counts.
edited 5th May '13 2:01:56 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I'll add my vote towards Yuri Grigorivich. Heinousness met in spades and no redeeming characteristics.
From what I know of the series and from what has been discussed here I support the removal of the Death Note entries. While I personally don't find Light to have redeeming characteristics I agree that there is too much ambiguity for him to be a good example. None of the other characters come close to the kill count leaving everybody else out shadowed.
@12453 Trying to get his sister back sounds like a redeeming characteristic. Not a CM.
@12455 & 12457 Sounds like Devil Saint Guilty and Alberich are overshadowed by Cancer Deathmask in terms of heinousness but the example for Cancer Deathmask is badly written it is hard to tell. Cancer probably counts but the example is badly written.
Medusa from Soul Eater is a definite keep. Horribly heinous without redeeming characteristics.
@ 12460 The entry itself admits that Ramsay Snow is worse , Dagmer Cleftjaw doesn't make the cut.
A total has-been.
@Fujiwara: The narrative sort of does make him out to be a Complete Monster. The problem? Kyon is providing the narrative, so it's filled with bias and Protagonist-Centered Morality. His point of view aside, Fujiwara truly is a despicable piece of work, but from his tearful Motive Rant we can see that he's not a Complete Monster. So it's a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for him.
Medusa is a definite keep and I have no idea where they got the idea she feels love.
They most likely COMPLETELY missed the purpose behind her last words: "I love you, Crona."
Foreign Troper
(Edited out)
edited 5th May '13 10:34:35 AM by Forenperser
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Thought we weren't talking about Killian for another 2 weeks so we wouldn't spoil people who haven't seen the third movie yet. Also, agree with Ambar on adding Yuri.
edited 5th May '13 2:22:44 PM by OccasionalExister
Foreign Troper
Wooops, sorry, edited it out ;)
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
In the topic of medusa can someone get rid of the nattery second bullet in her example.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
The IM 3 villain either counts or is a GDV.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Is just not bringing it up for just a while really that difficult?
Cleric of Banjo
I wondered, any thoughts on Unosuke from Yojimbo.
Something that struck me, since Yojimbo was adapted into a Spaghetti Western (A Fistful of Dollars), Unosuke definitely feels like an inspiration for characters like Angel Eyes from The Good, the Bad and the Ugly or Frank from Once Upon a Time in the West, who are definitely complete monsters. Ramon is the Unosuke-equivalent in A Fistful of Dollars and he is listed on the YMMV page of that film.
However, Unosuke is less heinous than his successors I think. He's cruel and loves violence, but doesn't rise to the type of sadism as the other guys do.
edited 5th May '13 2:46:09 PM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
I don't think Unosuke is worse than his compatriots, honestly. Ramon Rojo is the clear villain of Fistful of Dollars...Unosuke's more a memorable face in the crowd
Cleric of Banjo
That's a good point. I don't know if there is an exact trope to fit Unosuke (besides Elite Mook), but it's sort of like the movie doesn't really have a Big Bad- its more like the protagonist is up against two gangs, and Unosuke is the most competent mook.
Like you could imagine a similar movie in which there was a bigger villain and someone like Unosuke would be a Mauve Shirt.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
A total has-been.
Jeff and Hayley from Hard Candy still haven't been removed as examples from the film's YMMV page. Is anyone going to cut them?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Irredeemable: Plutonian: why does he got through a Face–Heel Turn? Does he go insane? If so, moral agency problem?
EDIT: And Lighty, calm down 
edited 5th May '13 4:11:11 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
We already discussed Plutonian. Nothing forced him. He snaps, but he has full control of his faculties
edited 5th May '13 4:56:44 PM by Lightysnake
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Alright then.
Don't know if he was discussed, but what about Calvin Candie from Django Unchained? No redeeming qualities, no Freudian Excuse, and his Faux Affably Evil makes the moments when he DOES snap scarier.
edited 5th May '13 5:02:54 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
We also discussed Calvin. he cares for Steven and his sister
Cleric of Banjo
He and Stephen were already discussed at some point and voted down. The two of them are good friends and legitimately care for each other, so that definitely disqualifies them (it also seems likely that Calvin cares about his sister- but even if he doesn't, he clearly cares for Stephen).
Edit- ninjaed
edited 5th May '13 5:04:25 PM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
See, I'm not sure. Now, I'll grant you Stephen caring for Calvin, but not sure about the other way around. And the whole sister thing has Incest Subtext.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Just because it's creepy doesn't mena it's not affectionate and genuine.
Stephen openly insults Calvin without repercussion and Calvin clearly respects Stephen's advice
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Fair enough. It's too bad we didn't see more of the Brittles. They seem like they could be possible candidates.
Re Dagmar, iirc, that entry is rather missing what actually happened.
Basically (correct me if I'm wrong), Robb put out a bounty on Theon's head, so that Theon would be brought to him and Robb intended to execute Theon for treason. As part of the bounty, Robb promised amnesty to the other Ironborn if they would turn Theon in. In addition, Robb agreed to let Roose Bolton send his son, Ramsay (who no one knows is evil at this point) to try to retake Winterfell and capture Theon (and bring him to Robb).
Dagmar and the Ironborn knocked Theon out and it is ambiguous whether they planned to take him back to the Iron Islands or sell him to Stark men in exchange for amnesty. Note, as far as they knew, this meant selling Theon to Robb or an appointed representative and had no knowledge of the Boltons period, and definitely no knowledge of Ramsay's sadism.
Come season three, Theon is locked in a dungeon in what is almost certainly the Dreadfort (the Bolton home) and being horribly tortured by people passing themselves off as Ironborn to further mindscrew him.
Tl; dr, there's a very high likelihood of Inferred Holocaust going on with Dagmar and Theon's other men (or if alive, they are probably being tortured in the dungeon next door).
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki