During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
He doesn't do much ON-screen; he only sometimes says; time to do the lords work! and than Zorro appears and they fight. He NEVER did (besides killing the man of course) on-screen.
Azor Ahai
Re Zorro, haven't seen that movie, but the military villain in the first movie was pretty evil, and the sequel character sounds like small potatoes in comparison.
Hodor
I am not talking about a military villain (he is absolutely a Complete Monster). I mean the one from sequel.
Azor Ahai
Oh. I know. Sorry I wasn't clearer. I meant that the first guy kind of set the standard for the series.
Hodor
Love's pretty hard to top, isn't he?
we are not talking about Love now.
No, but they're arguing that if he defines what a Complete Monster is in this series, then the other guy certainly doesn't qualify.
Serocco
What about some of the Vandenreich from Bleach?
- The unnamed Emperor. In his first appearance, he destroys Luders' limb for trying to pick a fight with Ebern and forces Luders to keep up straight while giving his report. Once Luders predicts that it would take 5 days for the Soul Society to prepare for war, his boss butchers him just for speculating the future. Then he looks to Ebern, admits that he can't praise or condemn the guy for losing his fight to The Hero... and kills Ebern anyway.
- Kirge Opie. His way of recruiting involves butchering everyone until they pick a fight with him. When one guy just asks to join, Opie runs him through the gut, screaming "That's how how it works" and proceeds to kill everyone else. When two girls actually try to fight, he easily knocks them out and orders his troops to beat them while unconcious. He watched as his entire squad got massacred by an Amazon Brigade trying to save their fellow Arrancars, kills the one guy that tried to escape and praises the girls for murdering his forces. Furthermore, he forcibly assimilates the chimera named Ayon (via rotting him to the bone and absorbing its energy), and tried to do the same to everyone else near him, including a kid.
edited 13th Jun '12 11:40:53 AM by Serocco
In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Given Kubo Tite's love of adding sympathetic backstories to the villains near the end of the arcs, we're holding off on adding any of the Vandenreich.
Reading SpongeBobSquarePants, i noted that, between other examples, Mr. Krabs, Squidward and "anyone in the Seasonal Rot episodes, from The Flying Dutchman to random background fish can be this, bar Sandy, Gary, Mrs. Puff, Pearl, Larry, Mermaidman, Barnacle Boy Patrick and Spongebob." are listed as Complete Monster examples.
Lost in Space
Those are terribly bad examples and should go. There are no Complete Monsters in Spongebob Squarepants; I don't give a flying flip who thinks otherwise.
Edit: removed with a moderator notice. If anyone adds it back, they will be suspended.
edited 13th Jun '12 2:15:55 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Agreed. None of them are CM's.
Think of the mooks!
To wit, those examples from Sponge Bob Square Pants are the reason the Western Animation page got locked before we finished cleaning it. I also see that folks forget the difference between Jerkass and Complete Monster.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
I remember reading a rather long argument in the main discussion page for CM about those examples, I'm suprised that it took so long they get rid of them.
Maybe I should look over some of the other pages to check if there are any other such examples.
Reading LeftBehind, i noted the following example: "The same reaction can be given to most characters in the stories, worse so for the Heroes who have less excuse."
Lost in Space
With respect to Spongebob, I helped remove them from the trope page, but I forgot about the work YMMV page. We need to make sure that anything removed is removed in both places.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Removed instances of CM from YMMV for the Movie. If you'd like to affix an official statement, feel free.
No you didn't, and I removed all the other stealth examples from there.
edited 14th Jun '12 7:16:47 AM by SeptimusHeap
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Lost in Space
I meant previously, when this came up originally.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Think of the mooks!
Jeez, that reminds me - we'll need to go over the other pages that we've done cleaning on. I'll start with One Piece... I spent way too much time on that.
EDIT: Oh dear god, that was a mess. So many bad examples.
edited 14th Jun '12 8:28:24 AM by 32_Footsteps
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Hello, everyone. I was looking at entries in Marvel Complete Monster subpage and i want to remove Wilson Fisk a.k.a The Kingpin from the list. This is how his entry sounds:
- Wilson Fisk/The Kingpin, the arch rival of both Daredevil and Spider-man, rules Hell's Kitchen with an iron fist, keeping people constantly scared of his wrath. While his cultured personality makes him seem less dangerous, he is a vile, repulsive sadist who takes extreme levels of pleasure in completely destroying the lives of anyone who gets in his way. His crimes have included putting hits on Spider-man's loved ones and killing Aunt May, regularly murdering his own henchmen for flimsy reasons, destroying Daredevil's career and revealing his identity, regularly letting Bullseye go on killing sprees, and letting his thugs have free reign over Hell's Kitchen.
- Fisk does make one attempt at trying to leave all of this behind. He starts a new life far away from any crime and starts a relationship with single mother. Much to his surprise, he actually comes to love this new peaceful life. Then the Hand brutally murdered the woman and her children to goad Fisk into getting back into the game. Fisk embraces villainy again fairly quickly and accepts the position of power the Hand offers to him — though he makes a point of violently killing the one who ordered the deaths of the woman and her children first.
I don't think that The Kingpin qualifies for this trope. He genuinelly cares for his own family and ,as written in his entry, started a new life far away from any crime and loved that life. He also treats his henchmen with respect as long as they don't betray or fail him. Sure he does horrible things, but he still has enough redeeming traits. Should we remove him or keep him?
Now i want discuss potential addition to Western Animation subpage. This is what i found in Avatar The Last Airbender YMMV page:
- Another smaller example would be the soldiers from "Zuko Alone". They pick fights for the sheer fun of it and willingly assault the people in the town they're staying in. Then, after a family didn't give them food (forcing them, of course), they took their youngest son and declared him old enough to fight in the war. What makes this worse is the soldiers openenly insulting the same family and taunting them that their eldest son is as good as dead, having been captured by the Fire Nation.
Should we add them into Western Animation subpage or remove them from YMMV page. They do seem pretty evil and their acts are portrayed in very negative light, at least in my eyes. Even Zuko was disgusted by them and called out on their actions. Keep in mind that Zuko, while being Anti Villain than outright evil person and not exactly the best example of evil villain, wanted to capture the Avatar, was still loyal to his father and disguised as Blue Spirit to steal food from innocent people and stole ostrich horse from a kind family in "The Cave Of Two Lovers". They do fit all qualifications of Complete Monster. Their actions are presented in negative light, other characters fear and hate them and they are not shown to possess any altruistic qualities. I say we should include them.
Think of the mooks!
Well, with Kingpin, we have the standard issue of Depending on the Writer when dealing with comic characters. I've seen stories where is all too willing to be brutal to his own family.
A bit more reasonable would be to discuss him in terms of heinousness. Kingpin is, on occasion, subject to the lighter half of Eviler than Thou. He's also a frequent practitioner of Pragmatic Villainy. So I'd cut him for the heinousness standard, but not necessarily for any other.
The soldiers in question also fail the heinousness standard. Look, when we've got a Big Bad out to commit genocide, and we already have one such attempt in the series' past, those soldiers' actions are comparatively small potatoes. I have to say no.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Cut Fisk (regular Marvel Universe, not Punisher MAX Kingpin) due to him possesing some positive qualities and arguably being less evil than other non-complete monsters (also he never killed Aunt May, just had her shot and put near death).
And I support 32 Footsteps on this one, the soldier is nowhere near as bad as Ozai, and even someone like Zhao does more henious things. So cut without mercy and suspend anyone who tries to add them back.
Should Yakone and Tarlock be added to the Complete Monster Western Animation list after we learned about them and their deadly blood magic?
Read through the last few pages, both have been brought up already.
