During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
One thing I would ask is this—should we be taking into account the age group the books are aimed at? I remember at seven or eight having one of my teachers read The Lion The Witch And The Wardrobe to us, and being utterly horrified by the Witch's murder of Aslan, to the point where I had to leave the room. If memory serves, Lewis wanted the books to be read by/to younger children. Given the actions that most villains in children's lit get up to, does she count? Just a thought.
Walder Frey shouldn't be cut. The entire Red Wedding sequence proves he's a monster. And even in universe, he is since he broke the sacred law of hospitality.
He's a monster, but is he a complete one? When compared to the likes of Gregor Clegane, Joffrey Baratheon, and even Tywin Lannister he honestly doesn't seem that bad.
Yes, he is that bad. The entire family is scared by him. He broke the sacred law too, and didn't even care when his son was threatened.
Is that it? Because this trope has very restrictive criteria and standards on who gets in and stays in.
Could anyone objectively mention one good quality about him?
Azor Ahai
He's very protective of his family- Walder is like the most extreme version ever of Hypocritical Heartwarming- only he gets to treat his family members like dirt. He also does provide for all of his children, including his many bastars.
And again, while he and his family are seen as complete monsters in-universe, that's because of how much the society cares about Sacred Hospitality/loyalty to one's liege lord. Jaime Lannister is also seen in-universe as an irredeemable monster because he assassinated the king he had sworn to protect- note that said king was a sadistic, insane tyrant.
Hodor
Think of the mooks!
Also, In-Universe calling people a monster falls under You Monster!, not Complete Monster. They can overlap, of course, but the former is not proof of the latter.
edited 24th May '12 8:51:31 AM by 32_Footsteps
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
I already removed Walder from the list. Same with Roose and Euron Greyjoy. Littlefinger, is more quastionable so I am leaving him for now, but I want to see the consensus. If most people want to remove Littlefinger, he will be removed.
Hello again, sorry to start a new topic, but Maleficent has returned to the YMMV page of Sleeping Beauty, as a complete monster. The last time this was brought up, many people argued against it, and it was removed. The person who put it back up said that he wanted to know specifically why she was taken down. Anyone got the reasons (I distinctly remember someone saying not to get into this, as it's been done before, but oh well)
Think of the mooks!
I'm just going to take this one to Ask The Tropers; trying to remove it now will be Edit Warring, and that's a no-no.
MONEYMONEY, in the future, when you make an edit as per this cleanup thread, please cite to this thread in some way (such as "Removing per discussion in the Complete Monster Special Efforts thread") in your edit reasons.
edited 24th May '12 11:40:29 AM by 32_Footsteps
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
I still say that putting him up when we don't really know his motivations is premature.
Azor Ahai
Well if I had to take a guess, it's some combination of screwing over Westeros because nobles look down on him and having sex with Catelyn and/or Sansa.
Still, the fact that it isn't totally spelled out and a lot of fans don't think he's that evil maybe suggests he shouldn't count.
edited 24th May '12 3:18:57 PM by Jordan
Hodor
Think of the mooks!
I'm going to say what has become habit - leave him off for now, discuss him when we get more material.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
I think A Song of Ice and Fire is clean now. Time to lock it.
edited 25th May '12 2:12:13 PM by MONEYMONEY
HGW XX/7
Removing Littlefinger seems slightly premature - especially given the revelation in A Dance With Dragons that he subjected Jeyne Poole to prolonged sexual slavery in order to "train" her for her marriage to Ramsay. If Tywin's "sharp lesson" with Tysha qualifies him for this status, then I just don't see why Littlefinger's treatment of Jeyne doesn't.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
Well I haven't read A Dance of Dragons yet (though, I am going to). Besides, I just think that the majority should agree, even though, I think that he could count, when I read the description. In the first, second, and third books, he doesn't do enough for a CM, to me, but I will read the fourth and fifth now.
HGW XX/7
Fair enough. Littlefinger is indeed complex, but (and this is a subjective opinion) his treatment of Jeyne crosses the MEH for me. Read A Dw D and see how you feel.
edited 27th May '12 11:19:57 AM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei
I think it's possible to cross the Moral Event Horizon without qualifying as a Complete Monster. Littlefinger is going to need one heck of a justification not to, but currently we don't know anything about his motives, so I personally would rather not add him yet.
Correct. Moral Event Horizon is not enough for a CM title. But I will read ADOD anyway and say how I feel. Remember the morality of the book though. Littlefinger is nothing compared to Ramsay or Joffrey.
Think of the mooks!
The important difference between someone who has crossed the Moral Event Horizon and a Complete Monster is that you can still find some positive character traits for the former. Both are evil and beyond redemption. But you could still have a Freudian Excuse and loved ones that you care for after crossing the MEH. You may have crossed into monsterdom, but it isn't necessarily complete.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
I'd actually say he is fairly bad even by the standards of the series. I just don't feel comfortable listing him under a trope that requires knowing how the character thinks and what he wants when we don't have much of a clue how he thinks, and only slightly more as to what he wants.
There's no penalty for waiting until more information comes to light, we seem to be making that call a lot regarding ongoing media.
Not neccasairly; Darth Vader crossed MEH long time ago, yet he got Redemption Equals Death. So even crossing MEH doesn't make a character beyond redemption. Beyong Redemption does NOT make a character automatically a CM either though.
edited 27th May '12 11:03:11 PM by MONEYMONEY
Then you are getting the definition of Moral Event Horizon wrong: It's
Yeah, MEH is the point where not even a Redemption Equals Death situation is possible. But just because someone has crossed the MEH doesn't mean they're a CM, since there is still a bit of space between "irredeemable" and "has no positive traits period."
