During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
D'Hoffryn, Lucifer and the other one, yep.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Thanks. Just making sure so I didn't add an extra vote or miss one.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Aurang.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Doctor, Lucifer, and Aurang (Aurang sounds like Ygy: Trying to escape, but is WAY too sadistic about it (love that quote)). He sounds bad even compared to the race of sexual sadists.
edited 24th Jul '17 8:11:33 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
D'Hoffryn, Obrero, Lucifer, and Aurang. Cut Aurax.
The Unknown Unknown
Aurang.
Messenger from another dimension.
I will say yes to Lucifer but how much characterization does she have?
And yeah to Aurang.
edited 24th Jul '17 11:35:18 PM by emperors
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Aurang and Lucifer
Doctor, Lucifer, and Aurang.
Well after waiting for someone else to EP Solomon I've just watched to episode he debut in. So I've have taken the initiative to EP him myself. without a further a due I give you Solomon's Write-up.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Solomon is the Monster of the Week in the Doctor Who episode "Dinosaurs On A Spaceship" and a Solomon was a 24th century trader, pirate and mass murderer.
Now Solomon saw a Silurian Ark which crossing his route. When he discovered that they were transporting dinosaurs upon their Ark and quickly set about taking them for his own. He ordered his two robots to wake the Silurians from stasis in small groups and then dispatched them into space effectively killing them all and committing genocide.
However, he realized later that the ship had reset its course back to where it came from - Earth. When the Eleventh Doctor arrived, he realized that he finally had a means of changing course and of repairing his legs, which which were mauled by Velociraptors. He forces The Doctor to repair his legs by holding Rory and his dad hostage, commands his robots to shoot the latter, and threaten to kill him Rory, and his dad should he not oblige.
Once the Doctor repaired his legs, Solomon betrays him, demands the Egyptian queen Nefertiti in his possession, or else his two Robots will blast the Doctor and his companions with their lasers, killing them. The Doctor obliged after Solomon's Robots killed the Triceratops, and Solomon took Nefertiti to his small space vessel in hope of escape, as Earth had locked missiles onto the ship, leaving The Doctor, his companions, and all the dinosaurs he once sought to be valuable to be destroyed by missiles .
However The Doctor returned but shut down the Robots and placed the homing device in Solomon's ship, so that the missiles would hit it instead. The Doctor took Nefertiti and demagnetised the ship, allowing it to fly out of the Ark. Solomon then died when his ship was blown up by the missiles.
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?
Well there is nothing on his backstory on how he became a greedy self centered sociopath.
He said to has sent a distress signal to the Silurian Ark, though that was only a ploy to get on their ship, kill every last Silurian on there, and take their cargo the dinosaurs all for his own profit.
The wounds on his legs were his own fault for mishandling and even abusing the velociraptor so he doesn't get any sympathy points.
His regard for all life only stems down on how valuable they are to him. he kills the entire Silurian race but keeps the dinosaurs alive just because the latter was worth more to him, then leaves the dinosaurs to die when he finds out that Queen Nefertiti is more valuable than the dinosaurs.
He did create the robots to serve him, but places no value on them other than extra labor.
So there's nothing in this category.
Heinousness
I am aware how high the heinous standard is.
Keep in mind however all he has for resources are himself two robots and a small spaceship. Despite this he manages to be as heinous as he can be.
He commits genocide to the entire Silurian race just because they were in the way of his greed, enslaves and abuses the Dinosaurs under his care, even killing one them just to make a point, and latter leaves them to get killed by missile along with the Doctor and his companions just because he found a more "valuable object" in Queen Nefertiti.
So I believe he makes the cut here.
Final Verdict
I don't know about you guys but I believe he is worthy of a !
edited 25th Jul '17 12:51:31 AM by G-Editor
Messenger from another dimension.
Abstain on any Dr. Who villain. The heinous standard there is just so, so high and complicated.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
I give a tentative for Solomon. I concur he's awful for a guy with two robots and a spaceship.
There are a lot of Doctor Who villains who are just one guy but managed to kill a lot of people. The first person on the Doctor Who CM page is Koquillion who wiped out a whole planet on his own. On the other hand, the most recent villain on the page, Lord Sutcliffe, is a guy who “only” killed hundreds of people and has a lot more resources than Koquillion.
Based on heinousness alone, I would say Solomon qualifies. What speaks against him is that him killing the Silurians happened completely off screen. So right now I’ve to give him a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
because of Offstage Villainy. Of course, it has been a long time since I watched that episode so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
Yeah, at this point in time, I'm going to give a hard "no" to Solomon. Genocide or the attempt of it is so, so common among Who villains, even among those with low resources (hello, Koquillion) that it fails to stand out in any way or form, and the rest of his crimes don't seem to stand out in any way whatsoever compared to other villains.
As was said once, resources is not necessarily a "get on trope free" card. There comes a point where some crimes become so common by the nature of the setting they fail to stand out regardless of where the villain stands, and I don't see how Solomon stands out in any way anymore.
edited 25th Jul '17 3:25:47 AM by Scraggle
I wouldn't consider killing the Silurians offscreen. Sure we don't see him killings them in the present but there is onscreen evidence that he did indeed killed them off and have a lasting impact on the episode. The entire space ship was abandon and uncared for, their are records that Silurians were there prior to Solomon's arrival not to mention a video recording on one of the Silurians, the coordinate shifted right back to earth after he killed and he even admits to killing them off without showing any remorse on that matter.
As long as we see evidence and the aftermath of ones action it still counts as onscreen.
I believe the way he killed the Silurian his enough to make him stand out as he has all of the suffocate in space basically condemning them to slow and painful deaths
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
He also killed a Triceratops a dinosaur that was supposed to be extinct just to make a point and was more than willing to leave all the dinosaurs to die causing them to become extinct once more.
He also had plans to enslave and rape Queen Nefertiti and is implied to have raped other women before.
edited 25th Jul '17 4:00:17 AM by G-Editor
And? Gillyflower, for an example, tries to horribly poison most of humanity with red leech poison. The cruelty of the death and the reasons behind it suddenly stop mattering after a while because we've got plenty of qualifiers in the series who specialize in both.
I'm still not convinced in the slightest. "He kills a Triceratops" again, scarcely bears mentioning whatsoever and if his only remotely unique crime is attempted rape (and saying "he may have raped others" doesn't strengthen your case as we go by what's onscreen) I'm still not seeing how he stands out or passes the heinous standard in any way.
I repeat: no to Solomon. Absolute no to Solomon. It'd take a damn good argument beyond just "well, he also does X!" to convince me as to why he merits listing among the others.
edited 25th Jul '17 4:03:30 AM by Scraggle
Switching to abstain then. He still strikes me as a loathsome Ungrateful Bastard thought.
Messenger from another dimension.
Easy no to Solomon after hearing more information.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
to Aurang.
to Solomon. I will point out he's been proposed twice now, and both times he's been voted down.
The simple fact of the matter is, as unpleasant as he is, he simply doesn't meet the standards of heinousness enough to qualify. He's a truly detestable Hate Sink, but not a Complete Monster.
Not only is his worst act mostly off screen, but in retrospect its not so bad. He doesn't commit genocide against the Silurian race, he just kills around two hundred of them trying to form a colony. Their are still several million of them living in hibernation on earth.
As its been pointed out, Koquillion slaughtered the entire Didoian race (which admittedly was down to tens of thousands before he got there) down to two people, as well as his own crew, armed only with a broken space ship.
Heck even attempted rape isn't unique to him, it doesn't happen to often in this show sure, but others have tried it: a random thug tried to rape Barbara all the way back in The Keys Of Marinus, Emperor Nero spent an entire portion of the episode trying much the same in The Romans (and the whole thing was Played for Laughs as Nero was portrayed less as an evil tyrant and more as a bumbling spoiled idiot), Sharez Jak clearly wanted to rape Peri in The Caves of Androzani. etc.
Their maybe future candidates in this show, or possibly a couple that already exist which we haven't found yet. But Solomon will never be one of them.
edited 25th Jul '17 5:55:31 AM by MGD107
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
"he just kills around two hundred of them"
Boy, if that doesn't speak for how high the heinous standard is. "Oh, he only kills 200, no big deal" ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Oh, he's been proposed before, too, and shot down? Why did this go unnoticed?
edited 25th Jul '17 5:49:28 AM by Scraggle
You don't say. When I proposed Corakinus from the spin-off Class who slaughters a few planets, I feared that he wouldn't meet the standard.
I don't think he was formally proposed before.
edited 25th Jul '17 6:20:24 AM by Silverblade2
on Solomon. Thoroughly unpleasant, utterly selfish, but lacks that cruelty to set him above.
Let me put it this way. I viewed Solomon as someone who would kill someone for personal gain. For even the lesser DW Monsters, they would kill someone and consider it personal gain. He wouldn't go out of his way to not kill someone, but most in the setting would go out of their way to kill someone.
edited 25th Jul '17 6:28:10 AM by Larkmarn
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
I agree with what the others have said, Solomon really doesn't sound like he stands out. I also feel like we've reached critical mass on these Doctor Who candidates, at least of the Monsters of the Week characters. There may be more examples in the future but they would have to be pretty unique to qualify.
edited 25th Jul '17 6:37:53 AM by TommyFresh
Sorry if I'm being annoying, but I just want to check since I'm not sure what you meant: When you said that you were "yea-ing the above example," do you mean Lucifer (since she was the last proposal) or were you referring to something else, such as agreeing to the two posts above you?
edited 24th Jul '17 8:00:42 PM by finalsurvivor1