During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
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to everyone I missed").
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What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Scraggle: Did some research, and the issue I read was issue 42: St. Paradines.
Caesar
'Yes' to both the Red King and the snuff porn trio. Read botb stories and both the Red King and the trio are EASY Keeps. Red King in particular is just a HIGHLY terrifying and suprisingly interesting case of an Eldritch Abomination.
As an aside, guess I WILL do a MAX!Bullseye proposal to settle this th ing once and for all. Will get that up within a day, so everyone stay tuned for it.
edited 28th Jun '17 10:10:45 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Having read the arc myself, I maintain "no" votes on MAX Kingpin and MAX Bullseye.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Red King and the punisher trio.
We mind saving the votes for MAX!Bullseye until the EP's actually put up? We can all put in our two cents there.
Anyways, Warthog, if it's alright with you I'll have that Punisher candidate up tonight as I've just read the story and I'm... fully convinced he counts by the standards of the 616 universe. Child pornography's a uniquely terrible crime and Fedenia doesn't have anywhere near as many resources as, say, Reverend Smith from the same universe.
Honestly Ravok? I'm honestly looking forward to Bullseye's effortpost. I think it's funny that I was originally okay with cutting him but felt conflicted with cutting the Kingpin... only to completely swap opinions once you clarified things.
Anyway, I reread the Punisher story I talked about and refreshed my memory. Would anyone object if I rolled out an effortpost and saw where everyone stands on the villain?
EDIT: Oh yikes, ya beat me to it Scraggle. You still wanna effortpost the colonel, or are you okay with me handling it?
edited 28th Jun '17 10:54:01 PM by FriedWarthog
Wanna talk about that in PM? I'd be quite avid to get a Punisher candidate up myself but I'm not going to fall on my sword if you want to take him.
Alright, so I've got four characters worth discussion tonight. I'll start with our next Punisher keeper... with full credit to Warthog for finding and letting me do this one, here we go.
What's the setting?
Don't figure we need much of an introduction here as the Punisher is one of Marvel's most recognizable anti-heroes, but for a refresher... Frank Castle is a vigilante who's family was slaughtered, driving him to vengeful extremes to exact brutal justice on the criminals polluting the streets he prowls. How brutal the Punisher is varies... he's been everything from a brutal vigilante who retains some standards, a borderline sociopath, and, in one case, an angel. This one comes from the main version of the character from the primary 616 Marvel universe. Our candidate is a one-shot villain, the perverted Colonel Herbert Fedenia.
Who is Fedenia? What has he done?
Fedenia is a military instructor at an old military school called St. Paradine's, where children, some as young as seven, are enlisted to be trained. Fedenia initially seems like a fairly decent fellow, proudly talking to the parents of anyone interested in enrolling their kids of the school's good history, academic classes, and solid instruction. We do get a peek at some of Fedenia's early behavior, though, mainly in terms of some violently misogynistic remarks he makes — stating that he'll never allow a girl to attend St. Paradine's — and the fact he allows his other instructors to brutalize the "advanced classes" — which, of course, are still children. Frank obviously gets a little suspicious and decides to investigate himself, going through a hidden sideline and into St. Paradine's basement. The truth is quickly revealed.
Fedenia? Is a child pornographer. Fedenia forces all the children to regularly participate in his twisted videos, having them routinely raped by the other instructors and keeping it all a secret from both the general public and their own parents. Frank, rightfully, is disgusted and busts the operation of the latest shoot Fedenia's hosting. Fedenia furiously orders him murdered and Frank fights his way through Fedenia's goons, breaking out of the school and posing as an FBI official to convince the children to get out of there. Fedenia orders the young cadets to shoot him down, but when one defies him, Fedenia furiously smashes the butt of his gun to his face and prepares to murder the kid himself while calling the kid a coward and a mutineer for daring to rebel against his sick system. Fortunately, Frank gets the drop on the guy and beats him down, leaving Fedenia at the mercy of his kids to be turned over to the police.
Any mitigating factors?
None with the man himself, of course. And I think he pretty comfortably passes the heinous standard, too... while he might not count in a world like the MAX print, in the 616 universe? Fedenia's role as a child pornographer is an especially unique and repulsive crime even in the world of the Punisher. Add that he doesn't have anywhere near as many resources as a lot of the other nastier villains, including the two we already have listed for the 616 universe, and I think Fedenia sets an admirably unique niche for himself.
Conclusion?
I think Fedenia qualifies here. Presiding over mass child rape and the distribution of child porn and being perfectly willing to murder the kids himself if they stand in his way clinch it for me.
I'll have my other villains up in a bit. Thoughts on Fedenia?
edited 29th Jun '17 12:21:57 AM by Scraggle
As discussed with Scraggle, Fedenia gets a yes from me. I dunno if it's worth mentioning, but he also drugs the kids he forces to star in his porn films. Definitely adds points to his creep factor.
edited 28th Jun '17 11:33:16 PM by FriedWarthog
Here's a tough one: CM you've gotten approved that you hate the least.
By the love to hate standard, I should actually say Bill Cox again, but I'm wanting to think of someone different (also Pajarro, LokSat, Alan Wells and Patrick Lloyd all seemed like their crimes were too awful for least hated).
Maybe Scott Dunn because all he did from what I can tell is murder (which is still awful and because I don't remember anything about raping the prostitutes he killed in the past as well). Or maybe Madison Bell because despite how hateful she was, she earned a small bit of my pity.
A few more for tonight... I'll make these ones fairly quick. From a pair of enjoyably stupid fantasy B-movies from back in the day, I present Deathstalker and Metalstorm: The Destruction of Jared-Syn. For the first...
What's the setting?
In the wake of Conan the Barbarian's success in 1982, a slew of mockbusters followed in an attempt to cash in the fame, cheap sword-and-sorcery films emulating the style of Conan. One of these films was Deathstalker, released a year after, follows the titular Deathstalker, a real barbarian hero who sets out to take three artifacts of ultimate power for himself. The first two are held by our candidate today, Lord Munkar.
Who is Munkar and what has he done?
Former magician to King Tulak, Munkar is an immortal sorcerer who's feats are known across the land, having apparently turned an entire army into sheep. Munkar deposed the king and took over the land himself, holding cruel reign over Tulak's former castle and turning Tulak's own daughter Codille into his personal sex slave, one of several he's had kidnapped by his men and inducted into his personal harem. An ambitious, cruel man with aspirations to rule forever, Munkar seeks the three "powers of creation," the Chalice of Magic, the Amulet of Life, and the Sword of Justice. Already in possession of two of them, Munkar announces his intention to make the strongest warrior in the land his heir to the throne, hosting a tournament where all the land's strongest warriors will compete for the title. However, Munkar is of course lying through his teeth... to eliminate any potential rivals capable of challenging him, Munkar simply plots to have all the land's warriors slaughter each other until only one remains, allowing Munkar to kill the survivor himself and rule forever more as an unopposed tyrant. Deathstalker, of course, fights in the tournament so he can take Munkar's artifacts.
In the meantime, Munkar spends his time in his castle in the presence of his harem, having mutilated the eye of one of his slaves as punishment for her defiance, and holding a depraved party for the warriors fighting in the tournament where several struggling women, including Codille herself whom Munkar personally chains up and leaves to the mercy of a beastman, are humiliated and raped. After an attempt to search the land for the remaining element himself under disguise, Munkar learns of Deathstalker's presence and quickly sets about to eliminate this threat, forcibly transforming one of his goons into the likeness of Codille and sending him to seduce and kill Deathstalker. This doesn't work, and Deathstalker goes through the tournament. Of course, we get to our final battle, and though Munkar tries to torment Deathstalker with illusions to overpower him, Deathstalker breaks through and finishes Munkar off with the Sword of Justice.
Any mitigating factors?
Nope. The barbarians, Deathstalker included, are all pretty nasty pieces of work, but Munkar allows them all free reign to their depraved pastimes and is largely at the top of the heinous standard. I say keep him.
Next up... from Jared-Syn...
What's the setting?
A sci-fantasy flick also from 1983, this is a gloriously entertaining piece of cheese that follows the path of space ranger Dogen, who's pursuing the titular Jared-Syn. Coming to the mining planet of Lemuria, Dogen finds himself in the midst of a holy war hosted by the planet's natives, the Cyclopean nomads. Our candidates today and the creators of all the strife are Jared-Syn himself and his equally evil son Baal.
Who are these two and what have they done?
Jared-Syn and his cybernetic son Baal come to Lemuria, Jared-Syn interested in the prospect of godhood among Lemuria's nomadic people. Jared-Syn convinces the nomads that he is their messiah and that he intends to bring them glory to their homeworld again, and has them wage massacres to slaughter the humans of the world by the dozens. Jared-Syn and Baal introduce themselves confronting a prospector... in full view of the man's daughter Dyana, Baal paralyzes the man with a fluid that locks him in a horrible nightmare before Jared-Syn moves in for the kill and drains the man's soul through a red crystal. The purpose of these is simple... Jared-Syn and Baal are harvesting the souls of all of the humans on Lemuria through these red crystals, demonstrating their power by draining the soul of another poor sod captured by Jared-Syn's forces and dispersing the crystals among his followers. Learning of Dogen's presence, Baal hunts down and paralyzes Dogen in a nightmare, and Jared-Syn shortly thereafter teleports Dyana to his fortress whilst having a monster of his creation attack Dogen.
Jared-Syn, with Dyana in his clutches, forces her to put a hand on the largest crystal in his fortress and reveals the horrible truth of all the souls he's captured; Dyana feels and hears the tortured screaming of all the hundreds Jared-Syn and Baal have captured within the crystal, all of them kept within perpetual torment within until Jared-Syn eventually burns them up for a powerful surge of energy to complete the "holy war." Jared-Syn, of course, talks a load of bullshit when he talks about restoring the nomads' honors... he simply intends to enslave them all once the other humans are purged. Baal continues to track down Dogen and his allies until his cybernetic arm is ripped off by Dogen, causing Baal to implore his father to simply kill Dyana out of spite and impatience. Dogen eventually comes to Jared-Syn's fortress with a mask capable of resisting Jared-Syn's powers and exposes Jared-Syn for the sham he is. Jared-Syn is forced to flee when Baal is stabbed to death by one of Dogen's nomad friends and he flees through a portal on an airbike. While he gets off unscathed, Dogen breaks his master crystal and vows to continue pursuing him.
Any mitigating factors?
Nope. All signs point to Jared-Syn and Baal having equal responsibility harvesting the souls of countless innocents to fuel their rule. As for their relationship, Jared-Syn mainly treats Baal like a soldier, not seeming to care much when Baal's arm is torn off. The one potentially redeeming moment when Baal dies and Jared-Syn seems to scream in anguish is quickly rendered null and void when, in his very next scene a minute later, Jared-Syn's simply seen with a calm, smug smile on his face as he makes his getaway. He's clearly not that broken up about his son's death and the two share responsibility for locking a bunch of souls in torture alongside the whole "manipulating the nomads" thing, so I think they can both pass. I'm gonna say keep them both as well.
That should do it. I'll get Kaizen Gamorra and TAO up later, actually and write up my load if these are all approved. With that, thoughts?
edited 29th Jun '17 12:15:45 AM by Scraggle
to Fedenia and Munkar
say I have a question to ask does Jigsaw count. in the 616 continuity Billy Russo AKA Jigsaw is the guy who kills frank's wife and daughter becoming Frank's Arch-Enemy I'm pretty sure that he has done many more but does he do enough to qualify
edited 29th Jun '17 12:49:57 AM by G-Editor
Jigsaw... has a considerable rapsheet indeed, but I'm not aware if he has any redeeming qualities or not.
edited 29th Jun '17 12:55:17 AM by Scraggle
Avatar by Leafsnake
For Fedenia.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
ANM: I linked to your post 
Ravok: Yeah, effortpost Bullseye. I assume I can cut Kingpin?
second Red King. Curse Bells guy can stay (since it's, you know, HITLER), but does Haigus still count?
Eleventhree and Polly; unsure on Mickie (that damn line about him missing her makes me slightly wary; I'll have to see it myself to see if it's not redeeming or if it's like Paul Saetta).
EASY Fedenia. Hell, he MIGHT even count in MAX, but in 616 there's NO question.
Jared-Syn duo (ANOTHER fucking Karma Houdini? 
)
edited 29th Jun '17 1:20:13 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Red King (I have GOT to check that out!), Punisher candidates, Munkar and Metalstorm duo.
Avatar by Leafsnake
For Munkar.
And since the comic's arc ended 2 weeks ago, I'll write up a proposal for Bludgeon from Transformers.
to The Red King, Mickie Eleventhree and Polly, Colonel Fedenia, Munkar, Jared-Syn, and Baal.
Messenger from another dimension.
Fedenia, Munkar, and Jared-Syn and Baal.
edited 29th Jun '17 4:06:42 AM by emperors
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
That we had MAX!Kingpin up for so long is disappointing for me. I would have thought he'd been removed long ago.
The Red King, The Slavers ver 2.0 and that kiddie porn bastard.
Mickey, Polly, Eleventhree, Fedenia, Munkar, Jared-Syn, and Baal.
edited 29th Jun '17 5:35:13 AM by TommyFresh
Messenger from another dimension.
Question: Why is Sir Hugo from Innocents Shounen Juujigun listed on the Anime & Manga but not on the work's YMMV page?
Also, this Manga sounds awesome (I love medieval stories) and I pray someday it will be made into Anime. It could easily end up in my top 5 favorite Animes if it was ever made.
edited 29th Jun '17 5:59:55 AM by emperors
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Various Punisher villains.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Nice catch. Looks like the work page hadn't been created at the time the entry was approved. I just added it to the YMMV page and requested that the title links to the work page.
edited 28th Jun '17 10:01:01 PM by Scraggle