Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

The thing is intent qualifies only when someone else hasn't done the intent.

In this case, Validar intended to do it, solely because Grima wanted him to, then failed. Then Grima succeeds in it, before recovering his powers at origin's peak.

So basically Validar's intent to do it would count, but only if Grima's success at the action was removed.

Its the same reason why so many villains in Fist of the North Star don't qualify. Guys like Jackal do more in Rape, Pillage, and Burn with the same resources then your average villain, while Mad Scientist, Amiba, and Evil Warden Uighur invent new heinous standards.

Fanatical loyalty to an individual to the point of being willing to die for them is more of a redeeming quality then Grima doing it for himself. Basically Validar has a Onesided Interspecies Friendship.

edited 20th Feb '17 8:29:16 PM by Monsund

I will say this... fanatic devotion to something in the context of how it's represented with Validar doesn't even remotely approach being a legitimate redeeming quality. We've had numerous similar cases and none of them were deemed disqualifiers.

The thing is intent qualifies only when someone else hasn't done the intent.

That was...never a rule used on this thread before.

''In this case, Validar intended to do it, solely because Grima wanted him to, then failed. Then Grima succeeds in it, before recovering his powers at origin's peak. So basically Validar's intent to do it would count, but only if Grima's success at the action was removed.''

...Or both could be taken into account for their heinous levels.

Dragons are people too in FE.

My post never implied to be arguing against that though...

(Edit: NVM. Looks like you were referring to Scraggle there)

edited 20th Feb '17 8:36:37 PM by Awesomekid42

Dragons are people too in FE.

It doesn't make Validar, a good person, mind you, but its more then his competition has.

Ambar Son Of Deshar, and Laculus among others have discussed this.

Its why so many villains Berserk, and Fist Of the North Star don't qualify.

Validar attempted it out of loyalty, he failed. Grima succeeded, and did much more then Validar in addition to succeeding where his deluded minion failed.

Loyalty to an individual has been discussed as a good trait in the past(link).

edited 20th Feb '17 8:35:58 PM by Monsund

That's...again, it's not a rule.

Loyalty to an individual has been discussed as a good trait in the past

That isn't the same thing as the The thing is intent qualifies only when someone else hasn't done the intent. thing that I was talking about though...

Wow about 2 pages discussing Validar and Grima.

It is hard for me to see the heinous standard of Fire Emblem since I haven't played any of the games.

I say keep Validar the attempt on the apocalypse is just as bad and his loyalty for Grima seems simply to be a Psycho Supporter.

Now wether if Grima counts or not who is willing to EP him

And yet the post directly below that states Crossbones' loyalty isn't based on actual genuine friendship or altruism but instead fanatic loyalty he channels into his atrocities - sort of a similar case to Bellatrix. Ambar argues otherwise but I think that's a subjective case... if anything, the reason to cut was that Crossbones was just heinous by proxy of Skull's heinousness. I can't see loyalty to a character like Red Skull as even remotely redeeming and it seems Crossbones is more a fanatical loyalty - the same way Validar madly worships Grima.

Again, I'm willing to make the case provided I get a few days to do some research as well as the relevant quotes from the Future Past DLC. I can remember enough bits and bobs of Awakening to know who says and who does what. I'm entirely comfortable with someone else like Monsund or someone more ingrained with Fire Emblem taking the case but this is a genuinely interesting case... I think it's a good example of revisiting a candidate with new information.

edited 20th Feb '17 8:45:20 PM by Scraggle

RE: Awesome Kid 42

Its been discussed this in the Fist Of the North Star discussions.

Most villains are absolutely horrid, and would easily count in another series. So we compare their deeds to the worst in the series.

Everything Validar does has been achieved on a larger scale by someone else.

RE: Scraggle

Yet Crossbones failed the cut, because he's outclassed by Red Skull. Similar to how Validar is outclassed by Grima and others.

Validar knows Grima will kill him, he follows him out of loyalty. Compared to everyone else, thats a redeeming quality.

As we'd say, he fails the heinous standard set by the others.

edited 20th Feb '17 8:48:18 PM by Monsund

Regardless, the debate isn't about Crossbones as he's been deemed a non-qualifier, and I'm not taking that loyalty to Validar's case as redeeming. As for being outclassed, personally, I don't think Validar necessarily needs to be disqualified on terms of being outweighed by Grima considering A. Validar is The Heavy in terms of carrying Grima's plot out and is by far the most eager to carry out his plans and B. the resource difference is massive... Validar has a lot of power and influence but Grima's powerful enough to be mistaken for a god in-universe, if I recall correctly. It's more so the issue of his upbringing and how he fares to other villains in the FE universe that makes me not feel really that strongly about his upbringing, and it's that I want to be debated more in terms of whether to cut or keep him - preferably not by me because I'm not the best person to really talk about those sorts of details.

edited 20th Feb '17 8:49:09 PM by Scraggle

Ok, ignoring how this post of yours has nothing to do with you bringing up the loyalty bit in your previous post, that is typically used if said action would be bog standard for that series.

Bringing the apocalypse has been done before in the FE series, but not enough to the point where every FE villain and their grandma has done it.

That's why he still have the likes of Cell from Dragon Ball, or Angelo from Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure. Their actions are done by other villains, but not to the point where it's incredibly common.

Algol killed more in the Bad Future all by himself

Thing is, considering how Validar is directly responsible for Grima's revival, the countless lives lost due to the apocalypse coming from Grima's revival would fall under Validar, meaning Validar has a much, much higher body count that Algol

edited 20th Feb '17 8:53:56 PM by Awesomekid42

RE: Scraggle

Grima succeeded in the ritual before recovering his power. Basically until the Grima's recovered their power at origin's peak, they were pretty much the same.

As mentioned, Algol killed more in the Bad Future all by himself, and created superior undead that kept victims in an eternal state of torture. All evidence points to Algol not being a fellblood, so he doesn't even Validar's Freudian Excuse.

RE: Awesome Kid

Enough have done it to question Validar. Particularly as Validar is just a delusional henchman who accomplishes very little in the game. The art book even says on page 214, that it was Gangrel that popularized the Grimleal.

If we're discussing Dragon Ball Z, Validar is Zarbon/spopovich to Grima's Frieza/Cell.

Validar wasn't directly responsible for Grima's resurrection, he tried, he failed. Then Future Grima did it instead.

Gangrel arguably did more if you go off the art book, and he was doing it for power instead of idealogical reasons.

Its also not as if Validar is alone in wanting to see Grima succeed either. A humongous army of Grimleal attempts to assist Grima in destroying humanity at the game's final chapter.

edited 20th Feb '17 8:58:56 PM by Monsund

We're not going to be comparing one named, developed character to hundreds of nameless mooks. That's not really how the heinous standard works unless every one of those mooks is individually shown being horrible.

edited 20th Feb '17 9:00:56 PM by Scraggle

Yes, but the trying is what's important.

And no, that wasn't discussed in the FOTNS stuff...all of the FOTNS villains do crazy evil stuff that breach the standard for their tiers.

RE: Scraggle

Point being, unlike Manfroy reviving the twisted practices of the Loptyrians, the Grimleal were messed up long before Validar.

RE: Lighty Snake

We don't list guys like Bolge/Borg because Jagi and Jackal do worse. In another series, Borg could very well count.

edited 20th Feb '17 9:03:25 PM by Monsund

If we're discussing Dragon Ball Z, Validar is Zarbon/spopovich to Grima's Frieza/Cell.

Yeah...no. Validar's intentions were for Grima to be resurrected in the first place. That's not only doing what was told, that's making what the villain do happen to begin with, way beyond your comparisons.

(Also, for you second example to work it wouldn't be Cell, it would be Babidi but that's a nitpick)

Validar wasn't directly responsible for Grima's resurrection, he tried, he failed. Then Future Grima did it instead.

As we went over, failing to do the intentions doesn't disqualify a character from CM status.

Gangrel arguably did more if you go off the art book, and he was doing it for power instead of idealogical reasons.

...Motivations doesn't instantly equate to the actions being more heinous, why bring this up?

Its also not as if Validar is alone in wanting to see Grima succeed either. A humongous army of Grimleal attempts to assist Grima in destroying humanity at the game's final chapter.

And yet Validar is the leader of them, commanding them what to do every step of the way until his death.

edited 20th Feb '17 9:05:02 PM by Awesomekid42

I will give some late to Honest, Violet, Marquis of Death.

To Zeus.

RE: Awesomekid

Mindlessly following Grima's orders just like his many ancestors. Validar only started the plans such as the Dragon's table sacrifice after he was taking orders from Grima of the Future.

In the past, someone failing to do so in a setting where someone succeeded at that and worse crimes has been disqualified.

Having a better motivation when the others who did it, did it for worse, is worthy of note.

Actually the Grimleal were trying to revive Grima for a thousand straight years, its why Validar was born, to give his body to Grima. Not only do the Grimleal continuing following Grima long after Grima's death, but Validar is entirely subservient once Future Grima enters the picture. He's essentially a lackey who doesn't think much for himself.

edited 20th Feb '17 9:08:59 PM by Monsund

Keep Validar. He's heinous enough, failure or no (ignoring how he succeeded in one timeline anyway).

edited 20th Feb '17 9:28:11 PM by Karxrida

I've already been discussing Grima and think he's a candidate, despite not liking him as a character.

edited 20th Feb '17 9:16:42 PM by Monsund

Mindlessly following Grima's orders just like his many ancestors. Validar only started the plans such as the Dragon's table sacrifice after he was taking orders from Grima of the Future.

Even then, that's still far beyond the example of Zarbon and Spopovich since while they simply done what was told to do, Validar did what was told for him to do while intending for present Grima to be revived in the first place.

In the past, someone failing to do so in a setting where someone succeeded at that and worse crimes has been disqualified.

1. Examples?

2. Just because it was done before doesn't mean the thread stands by that. Years have went by and the way the thread functioned with qualifications has changed.

3. For all I know, they could have been disqualified for reasons other than simply failing.

Having a better motivation when the others who did it, did it for worse, is worthy of note.

Still doesn't make them more or less heinous. And you said, word for word "Gangrel arguably did more" saying his motivations means he made actions more heinous than Validar's. And again, no, that isn't how it works.

Actually the Grimleal were trying to revive Grima for a thousand straight years, its why Validar was born, to give his body to Validar

Didn't intend to argue against that. My point is that in the present, the army of grimleal were led by Validar. Along with that, out all the Grimleal from the thousands of years, Validar has done the worse.

but Validar is entirely subservient once Future Grima enters the picture.

We've had lackeys of the main villains qualify for CM before, even if the lackeys never disobeyed them.

He's essentially a lackey who doesn't think much for himself.

And that has to do with whether or not he's a good villain, not if he qualifies for being a CM (Also, wanting Grima to be revived would be thinking for himself. It just means what he thinks is in benefit for Grima)

edited 20th Feb '17 9:17:45 PM by Awesomekid42

I'm still awaiting those quotes, by the by... I'll need to measure his dialogue before I really judge whether or not Grima's got enough character to count.

edited 20th Feb '17 9:19:05 PM by Scraggle

Validar intended present Grima to revive because of his fanatical loyalty to Grima, even before meeting Future Grima, he and the Grimleal were mindlessly following Grima's post humous commands.

Validar: "Master Grima, Exalt Emmeryn is to be put to death on the morrow. Events will soon be back on course."

Zarbon did stuff like killing civilians on his own.

Remember people like Tao don't qualify when villains like Frieza, or even protagonists like Frieza have done what he does on a larger scale.

I'd argue it does. A guy who kills someone because he thinks god is telling to do it is less heinous then someone who killed someone because they could earn some surplus cash for it. Its been discussed in the past.

The gigantic army of Grimleal in the last chapter was after Validar's death.

All the past lackeys I've seen to have qualified have done something to standout from their boss and others. Numidia and Valtome show no redeeming qualities, but they do less then their boss, Lekain. Validar doesn't do anything unique compared to Grima or anyone else.

A mindless follower falls below the heinous standard of their boss who came up with the plans that the lackey follows.

Grima revived Validar on his own, Validar never asked for it.

Even in the alternate timeline, Validar still died, leaving Present Grima to do it in his place.

RE: Scraggle

I got most of it done.

edited 20th Feb '17 9:35:52 PM by Monsund

Validar intended present Grima to revive because of his fanatical loyalty to Grima, even before meeting Future Grima, he and the Grimleal were mindlessly following Grima's post humous commands.

You know, people can follow what are told not mindlessly, but because they agree with it right?

Zarbon destroyed villages on his own.

Whe? Even if he did, that's at a far lower scale than reviing Grima to begin with. Sorbet would be a much better comparison really.

Remember people like Tao don't qualify when villains like Frieza, or even protagonists like Frieza have done what he does on a larger scale.

I know that (I was the one proposed Tao to be cut actually). But Validar attempted to bring the apocalypse. Tao killed three people, attempted to kill Goku and Tien, and threatened to kill a little kid (and even that was because the little kid tried to kill Tao first). A far larger gap in heinous standards. What you're doing is comparing apples to oranges you paintbush

I'd argue it does. A guy who kills someone because he thinks god is telling to do it is less heinous then someone who killed someone because they could earn some surplus cash for it. Its been discussed in the past.

But when Gangrel's intentions are only to cause the death of Ylliseans rather than the apocalypse, it's a far less scale (Also, Gangrel himself as a Freudian Excuse anyway due to hating Yllise due to what one of the previous exalts massacring Plegians in the past)

The gigantic army of Grimleal in the last chapter was after Validar's death.

Doesn't change how a huge amount of Grimleal were also assiting Validar when he was still alive.

All the past lackeys I've seen to have qualified have done something to standout from their boss and others

John Bordinay from NCIS Los Angeles qualified despite only doing what he was told by his boss.

Validar doesn't do anything unique compared to Grima or anyone else.

How about the mass suicide at the Dragon's Table? Grima finished that, but Validar began it.

A mindless follower falls below the heinous standard of their boss who came up with the plans that the lackey follows.

Again, John Bordinay.

Grima revived Validar on his own, Validar never asked for it.

That was a typo that I fixed, seconds later. I changed it to say that Validar wanted Grima to be revived before you made the post.

edited 20th Feb '17 9:37:44 PM by Awesomekid42

• 'Call Of Heroes: Cao Shaolun is the vicious son and second in command of the warlord General Cao Ying who uses his position to murder at will. After a career of killing at will, Shaolun arrives in the town of Pucheng where he murders a young woman, her cousin and a little boy, resulting in the town sentencing him to death. When his father's army arrives, Shaolun taunts his captors with the horrible death that awaits them and even attempts suicide to force them to save him or risk the destruction of the whole town. Upon being freed, Shaolun promptly begins looting the town and slaughtering people at a whim before torturing one of the heroes, vowing to kill everyone in Pucheng and leave him for last. Using his father's name to get out of trouble, Shaolun stands a spiteful, sadistic brat who enjoys nothing so much as killing at will and random.

• God Is Dead: Satan himself kicks off the plot by murdering God, and settles back to enjoy the resulting chaos as Pagan Gods swoop in and turn earth into a battlefield that kill billions of humans. Enslaving Hades as a lackey while regularly sleeping with his wife Persephone, Hades engineers far more death and destruction while also awakening the immortal Dragon that finally resets reality, killing everything that lives in retribution for Satan's misdeeds but not before eating Satan to share its belly with Jesus for thousands of years. Satan tricks Jesus into recreating the Gods, and later shoves him into a volcano to burn forever upon their escape. Satan then engineers a new conflict so he can attack God and kill him again, content to die having achieved everything he ever wanted.

• Kristy: Violet is the leader of the film's killers and a member of the cult that targets those they call 'Kristy', derived from "Follower of God" from Latin. Violet scouts out targets and delights in tormenting and terrorizing them before murdering them. Violet apparently begins the cult's activities by posting a video in which she encourages anyone to begin targeting 'Kristy' and to upload their kills to the folder "The Fold." When targeting the heroine Justine, Violet and her team kill multiple people on the campus, including Justine's boyfriend, before attempting to kill Justine herself. Violet also keeps trophies of her kills, revealing she has potentially dozens of victims. Consumed with envy, bitterness and cruelty, Violet's only purpose for being seems to be to find the 'Kristy' she hates so much and kill her again and again.

• Out Of Reach, starring Steven Seagal: The evil Faisal is the leader of a syndicate that specializes in human trafficking. Running an orphanage in Poland by deceiving good Samaritans, Faisal waits until the girls are in their early teens before abducting them and selling them into the sex trade. Faisal has been doing this so much that his business is worth billions, having sold off countless children. Faisal is a ruthless killer, showing no compunction in killing those in his way, the kids who become too much trouble, or anyone who fails him. When the hero William Lansing tracks Faisal down, Faisal attempts to kill him and keep the sex trade going in order to profit off it.

• From the Resident Evil Film series, the ultimate Big Bad Dr. Alexander Isaacs murdered his kindhearted colleague Dr. Marcus for the T-Virus when he realized its potential as a weapon. Experimenting on the innocent, Isaacs later gained delusions of godhood and opted to release the Virus at large while freezing himself and the few 'chosen' in cryogenic hibernation in order to rebuild the world in his image later. The end result was a mass extinction event of the world and the deaths of most of the human race. Isaacs leaves his own clones to clean up, aiming to exterminate any survivors. When he awakens, Isaacs promptly attempts to kill the heroine Alice as well, intent on maintaining the ultimate power he's betrayed and murdered to achieve.

• Baal: Jeffrey Harper Raines is a disturbing child who takes the name Baal. Revealed to be the demon Baal himself who possessed his 'mother' after having her raped and impregnated, Baal engineers the death of her husband at her own hands to 'protect' him, and later runs the orphanages he's sent to as a tyrant, resulting in massive amounts of deaths of children and staff. As an adult, Baal reigns over a number of cults, causing violence, sexual depravity and deaths before engineering an assassination attempt on himself via a Jewish man. Baal is revealed to have turned the demons against God with his master Satan and set himself up as a God to ancient civilizations where he commanded horrific atrocities. After the Jewish tribes destroyed his kingdom, Baal has maintained a grudge ever since and desires to plunge the world into bloodshed and slaughter while also exterminating every Jew alive before releasing Satan again to rule the world forever with humanity suffering eternity or giving into their darkest impulses.

• ' The Case of Charles Dexter Ward: Joseph Curwen is a wicked necromancer and slave trader in the 1600s who routinely buys and murders slaves for his dark rituals. Finally hunted down and destroyed, Curwen uses magic to ensure one of his descendants will resurrect him. Upon Charles Dexter Ward doing so, Curwen attempts to revive his old practices, including conjuring the spirits of humanity's wisest figures and torturing them for knowledge in dark rites. When Ward finally objects to the bloodshed Curwen propagates, Curwen murders him and takes his place, thrown in an asylum when he can't properly pass as his descendant due to his antiquated mindset. It is further revealed Curwen is allied to a horror from beyond where his plans could lead to the utter annihilation of all life in creation. Cruel, egotistical and utterly devoted to his own success at the expense of all others, Curwen stands apart as one of Lovecraft's most terrifying human villains.