During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Massam, Jack, and Stroller
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Kagari
Now then I believe that I have a candidate worth discussing if thats is alright. From the Assassin's Creed universe, serving as the Arc Villain in Haytham's storyline in Assassin's Creed III and also appearing in the same work the brought you Reginald Birch, I give you Edward Braddock.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Edward Braddock AKA "The Bulldog" is a general of the British Army and a member of the Templar Order. Initially presented as a friend of Haytham it was revealed that he helped Reginald Birch in kidnapping Jennyn killing Edward Kenway, and taking his journal, with him personally implanting evidence that got an innocent servant arrested
In 1747, he and Haytham took part in the siege of siege of Bergen op Zoom against the French Army, where he personally slaughter as much people as he can and enjoying every minute of it. When a man asked for he and his family to come with Edward and Haytham while retreating and called Edward a craven when he refuses to do so Edward have him and his family killed in response.
It only gets worse from there where Edward continue to kill and butcher not just his enemies, but also his allies, innocent, or anyone he felt like killing in the various campaigns much to Haytham's shock. This all earned him the nickname, "The Bulldog".
During the French and Indian War in 1754, he personally oversees the annihilation of and French camps. When the French tries to offer a truces Braddock ignores the proposal has order his men to kill them all causing needless deaths on both sides of the field. He also has ravaged and destroyed many native american tribes totally uninvolved but does so anyway solely because he enjoys the agony it brings them. This cause the native tribe, Iroquois, to help Haytham to kill Braddock.
Later he kills one of his own men when he believes him to be insubordinate, and has done this many time because of said claim and when Haytham and the Iroquois ambush him and his men he abandons them to die while he tries to escape but in the process Haytham manages to kill the bastard.
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?
Lets break it down.
He claims that his actions will pave peace, but in his mind peace is just where he is a sadistic bully who does what ever he wants while his men caters to his every will and if they don't he can kill them.
Also, Haytham claims that Edward was once an honorable man whose encounter with war and bloodshed led him astray, however when looking at the his letters found in Assassins Creed Rogue revealed that he was always a treacherous and sadistic bastard this ever since he met Haytham, with himself saying that they should have killed Haytham along with Ed Kenway. All the wars ever did was show Haytham the monster Edward truly is.
Edward also shows discomfort on Reginald Birch's search for the Peaces of Eden, but that is only because it might have a bad effect on Edward and that he might lose power. He doesn't really care about Reginald, not the Templar cause and only sees them as a way to secure power for himself and quickly abandons them when they don't really suit him anymore.
Not even his Dragon George Washington likes him as he mentions to a soldier of always having to tell the families on why Edward kills his own soldiers and always trying to have him take the least violent route only for Edward to not listen at all. The only reason Washington doesn't kill him is that he happen to be his superior and it may look bad if he did so.
Overall, I say he has NONE!
Heinousness?
His situation is in a way like Orson Krennic in that if his actions are limited into just one work, he would fail, but given that Forsaken has given him more heinous deeds like taking part in the Kenway Massacre and make his actions mentioned in AC III, shown in the novel finally making them Onscreen it would safe to say that he would be on par with Reginald in terms of heinousness.
Final Verdict?
I will leave that to you guys!
edited 11th Jan '17 6:08:37 PM by G-Editor
It's still a couple of months away, but I'm going to reserve discussion on Torment: Tides of Numenera. The discussion on Tyranny was kind of a mess since play times on these big western RPG's can vary so wildly from person to person, not to mention there was never any discussion on Pillars of Eternity back when it came out. Reservations dates feel like they were made for this kind of thing.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Massam, Jack, Stroller and Edward
Kagari
edited 10th Jan '17 7:17:41 PM by DemonDuckofDoom
...Motherfrigger got my boy Ed Kenway killed!?
to Edward the Bulldog.
It always felt cathartic having True Hero Haytham kill him. Now I feel even better about it.
Funny he has the same name as Haytham's dad. Also funny that the Kenway family has got a lot of stories told about them. I guess they're trying to balance things out with Ezio the husbando getting 30 games.
I'm unsure on Braddock. He's nasty, but heinous-wise...Haytham has some horrible deeds to his name, along with George Washington burning the Mohawk village, and even the contemporary assassins being awful, like Kesegowaase...
Then again, Braddock does seem to have a higher reach. And killed way more for the sake of sheer sadism. So...yea, I suppose.
edited 10th Jan '17 8:43:08 PM by Lightysnake
Edward Braddock
I'll give Edward a
Have a film proposal now, from a film that's...sort of a buddy-cop comedy called The Hard Way with Michael J. Fox and James Woods. Woods plays a cop on the case of a serial killer known as The Party Crasher. Fox plays a popular actor who, wanting to be taken seriously, decides to study under Woods. Whacky hijinks ensue!
...and a villain who is played really straight and is...well, surprisingly dark.
Who Is He? What's He Done?
The Party Crasher, played by Stephen Lang, is a notorious Serial Killer. We are helpfully informed the Party Crasher has murdered about six people, mostly petty criminals and drug dealers...I said mostly here. Now, the Party Crasher has a game of calling the cops, informing them of his intentions and going about it anyways. He got his name from hitting night clubs and other hot spots, which leads to him killing a man at random and trying to murder the cops who try to stop him. Shortly after, he's shown murdering a transvestite prostitute, before taking his gun dealer hostage when he realizes said dealer is working with the police to catch him. .
It's here that he finally confronts our hero, James Woods' character Jack Moss. The Party Crasher gets a rant where he reveals he once wanted to be a cop and thinks he's doing the cops' job for them by knocking off criminals and the 'scum of the earth'...then Jack drops the bombshell that the Party Crasher murdered a 4 year old little girl. His response? "You sacrifice pawns!"
The Party Crasher executes his gun dealer and tries to blow up Jack and the other officers. He's then pursued to a crowded theater where he guns a man at random down and fires on others, a child included. Escaping again, the Party crasher takes Moss's girlfriend hostage and ends up dangling her off a rooftop, trying to lure moss to him so he can kill them both. Michael J. Fox's character Ned arrives and helps save the day with Moss. The Party Crasher tries to kill the three on the rooftop, seemingly murdering Ned, prompting Moss to throw him off the roof to his well deserved end.
Heinous Standard?
Only villain, sets it.
Freudian Excuse?
He wanted to be a cop and couldn't cut it. That's...really it.
Redeeming Qualities?
Now, he claims he's killing 'scum' and doing the cops a favor. This doesn't hold up as he routinely tries to slaughter the cops himself, and kills people at random when he feels like it, and his victims are...low-level drug dealers and petty crooks who wouldn't merit death in your average Bronson film.
At any rate, though, the Party Crasher is a sadistic nut. The film confirms he's not killing criminals to make the world a better place, he's killing people because he enjoys murder. He's a murderous Attention Whore who loves his crimes plastered over the news. Now, we never know how or why he murdered a four year old and this is entirely offscreen, but seeing as he more or less tries to shoot a kid later and demonstrates zero remorse over this? I can't really see any mitigating factor here. Whenever he's going after people, criminal, cop or innocent bystander alike, he has a massive grin on his face, cackles like a lunatic and tries to murder people who are actually upholding the law.
All told, there's plenty to establish his pattern of behavior and he does enough onscreen to qualify.
And who doesn't love Stephen Lang?
Conclusion?
Keeper
Party Crasher
Party Crasher. That movie sounds pretty fun.
Yes to the Party Crasher.
Caesar
'Yes' to Massam, Jack (That comic page was nightmarish. Jeebus cripes...), and the Party Crasher (Love me some Stephen Lang).
I suppose a tentative 'Yes' to Edward for the moment.
Alrighty, 'nother candidate ahoy, from a media I don't propose many from, film! I'll have another film one coming up soon as well.
Who is he?
The killer is the main antagonist of the 1997 thriller Nightwatch, starring Ewan McGregor, Ned Nolte, and Josh Brolin.
MAJOR SPOILERS FOLLOW.
What has he done?
Years ago, the killer was a nightwatchman for a morgue. He was fired when someone walked in on him....."doing it" with one of the corpses he was guarding, at which point it came out he had done this to a LOT of other corpses as they came through.
The killer eventually (SOMEHOW) covered this up, got a respectable position in society, then began hiring prostitutes to play dead while he had sex with them. Until one time, he got tired of how fake it felt, and proceeded to stab a prositute to death, rape her corpse, then scoop out her eyes to keep as trophies while listening to "This Old Man".
The killer proceeded to do this to 4 more victims, all hookers, and eventually decided " Meh, this is getting boring, I'mma quit killing."
Of course, with local police, headed by Inspector Thomas Cray (Nolte), hot on his trail, the killer realizes he needs to give them a killer...so he finds a hapless nightwatchman named Martin (McGregor)and begins framing him for raping corpses of the morgue he's guarding.
Afterwards, the killer manipulates Joyce, a 17-year old hooker, into assist him in framing Martin, then brutally stabs her to death and makes it look like Martin killed her then raped her corpse.
Martin works with Cray, the only one to suspect his innocence, in figuring out the killer's plans....it then turns out that Cray is the killer. WHAT A TWEEST!
Cray tries to murder Martin and make it look like it was self-defense, however when Martin's girlfriend Katherine shows up and reveals that she has evidence that Martin didn't kill Joyce, Cray assauts and ties up Martin and Katherine.
When Cray's inspector partner Bill shows up and is about to stumble across Martin, Cray beats him to death with a baseball bat, then chains up Martin's best friend James (Brolin), promising to come back and kill him after he's done with Martin and Katherine.
Cray then prepares to kill Martin and Katherine in the most painful way possible by using a tiny buzz saw to cut open Martin and Katherine's heads, before he is gunned down by James, who escaped his restaints by cutting off his own thumb (DON'T SCREW WITH THANOS).
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Cray, in a rare occurence, deliberately averts this. To quote him earlier in the film:
" Even when we catch the killer, they want to know the how and why. In movies or television, the killer always explains the how or why. He always has some reason, however crazy. A mad gleam in his eye. I've interrogated murderers like this one before. Let me tell you, they are well beyond the need to justify what they do. They just do it. Explanations are just a fiction to make us feel safe. Because if it can't be explained, then it's just meaningless chaos."
And in the end, when about to kill Martin and the man desperately asks him why he's doing this:
"Stop asking for the how and why, Martin."
So yeah, Cray quite literally boasts that he has no reason.
Heinousness?
Main villain, worst in film.
Overall, raped corpses of people he was supposed to be guarding, brutally killed 6 hookers, one still a teenager, raped their corpses, then scooped out their eyeballs, beat his own police partner to death, tried to frame an innocent man for his crimes, and tried to murder a The Hero and his Love Interest with a buzz saw in a specifically more painful way then merely stabbing them to death.
Final Verdict?
Keep him. Nick Nolte, you deliciously evil scumbag.
edited 10th Jan '17 9:30:38 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Jebus. Keeper.
Cray also sounds a pretty good keep.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- Ambar, please add to the Drafts, I maybe would add a bit about how he several times drops and lifts Cody, but otherwise good.
- Stroller. Seems like he does as much with what he has (far fewer resources than Kobel).
- Braddock. Colonel Kilgore ahoy! And now we can probably give AC its own page.
- Party Crasher.
- Nightwatch killer.
Just heard back from a friend of mine I was just talking to, and who had just read Suzune Magica, and no, Kagari's vengance for Tsubaki is not a redeeming quality. Matsuri made it clear that Tsubaki wouldn't want the kind of vengance Kagari has been carrying out, and she didn't care. Kagari was mostly angry that Tsubaki wasn't around to take care of her anymore. She didn't care about her for who she was, only for what she could do for her.
So, no, her avenging Tsubaki is not a redeeming quality, and I might suggest we all reconsider her.
(Unrelated, I should've also mentioned that the franchise did feature yet another vengeful Magical Girl, Yuuri Asuka. However, Yuuri, formerly Airi Anri, genuinely loved the original Yuuri as a friend until the very end, is treated sympathetically, and didn't involve the deaths of otherwise uninvolved Puellae Magi in her scheme against the Pleiades Saints. Kagari as a person is basically a combination of Yuuri, Kanna Hijiri, and Oriko Mikuni, minus any of their redeeming qualities.)
edited 11th Jan '17 2:46:15 AM by SeaRover
to Stroller, Edward Braddock, The Party Crasher and Cray.
edited 11th Jan '17 4:59:07 AM by MGD107
to Stroller, Edward Braddock, The Party Crasher and Cray
Braddock.
Party Crasher.
Cray.
Wild Child
Stroller, Edward, Party Crasher and Cray.
Party Crasher and Cray.
Party Crasher and Cray. Seems like the pure evil Serial Killer type villains are returning.
edited 10th Jan '17 6:41:53 PM by Mediawatcher