During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Caesar
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Grune
And Happy Birthday, Beast.
Anywho, I did some research on the whole "stalker" thing, and I learned enough to be comfortable this character's stalker issues wouldn't be disqualifying.
Here comes the hard part. This is a DCAU character.
Now, before anyone grabs their pitchforks and torches, just hear me out. Even I'm not sure he counts, but it's been driving me crazy so here you go.
Who is he?
Garfield Lynns/ Firefly is a pyrotechnic for the pop star, Cassidy, and is creepily obsessed with her.
What has he done?
Sometime before the series, Lynns convinced Cassidy to go out with him. After a few dates, she ended up breaking it off with Lynns. Why isn't said, though it's implied she realized he wasn't the nicest person in the world. He…didn't take this well. All of this is offscreen.
In Batman: The Animated Series' episode Torch Song, Lynns confronts Cassidy backstage before one of her concerts and gets physical with her, stating she won't get rid of him like one of her "pretty boys." She shoves him away and states that after this show, he's fired.
As revenge, Lynns turns the pyrotechnics of the concert way up, nearly frying the front row of concert-goers and the onstage band. When Cassidy's manager tries to stop him, he smacks him away and turns the flames up even higher, setting the building, filled with hundreds of people, on fire. Lynns then flees the scene as firefighters show up.
Seeing Cassidy survived the ordeal, Lynns takes up residence at an abandoned warehouse and begins constructing a suit. When the police raid Lynns home, they see he has pictures of Cassidy all around, and even has a little shrine.
Showing up at Cassidy's next public appearance, again filled with hundreds of people, Lynns, now going by "Firefly" sets the building aflame and corners Cassidy. Revealing himself as Lynns, he prepares to kill her before being stopped by Batman and then escaping.
When Cassidy begins recording a new album, Firefly pumps smoke into the building, nearly suffocating numerous people, then kidnaps Cassidy.
Batman and Batgirl find Firefly's hideout, but he has rigged the place to explode, nearly killing them both and severely injuring Batgirl.
At the Mephisto factory, Firefly has tied up Cassidy and though she tries to talk her way out, Firefly is having none of it and reveals his plan: Pump a homemade chemical that can burn through anything into the sewers of Gotham, then set it ablaze and burn Gotham and the millions in it to the ground, for fun, then dissapear with Cassidy "like a puff of smoke."
When Batman shows up to stop him, the chemical is lit and about to explode prematurely and Firefly flees the scene, leaving Cassidy and Batman to die, but they survive and he is pinned by falling rubble and arrested.
Cassidy was traumatized by this ordeal and developed extreme pyrophobia as a result.
Firefly later appears in the episode, Legends of the Dark Knight, and it is revealed through newspapers he has been setting fire to buildings for unknown reasons.
When three kids, who think he's Batman at first, follow him to an old abandoned theatre, they see this is his latest target. He notices the kids, cracks a joke about their impending demise, then sets the building aflame and leaves them to die.
Batman shows up, reveals Firefly has been hiring himself out as an arson for hire (at the moment he's helping someone commit insurance fraud,) and Batman takes him down and saves the kids.
Firefly later makes an appearance in the Justice League episode, Only a Dream during a prison riot, and, along with Vulcana (lava chick,) merrily tries to roast any and all guards who get in his way, until he is caught once again.
Finally making an appearance in the Batman Adventures official comic-book, Firefly is a member of the False Face Society, and is tasked with firebombing a club whose owner owes Black Mask some money. Firefly's attempts are again thawrted by Batman.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
His "crush" on Cassidy is, suprisingly for this show, not treated at all sympathetic, rather as creepy and twisted. He obviously shows no care for her as a person, seeing as he tried to kill her twice , left her to die, and was going to keep her to himself when the opportunity presented itself, regardless of her feelings.
He claims she "burned" him (as in, broke his heart savagely.) We see none of their relationship before the show, and only have Lynns' word to go by. And even if she did, trying to kill hundreds of people to get revenge, then trying to kill millions for fun,isn't really justifiable by that excuse.
Heinousness?
I know, the DCAU has a very high heinous bar, however consider this:
1. Firefly has an attempted body count in the millions, and the attempted personal murder of 3 children, in just two appearances. Most villains, even The Joker, don't have that to them.
2. Unlike every other villain who has tried to blow up Gotham (barring The Joker,) Firefly has no sympathetic traits, and is doing it for no apparent reason.
3. Unlike every other villain who has tried to destroy Gotham, Firefly has jack-squat. Joker had a stolen nuke and some goons to help him. Baby-doll had sympathetic traits, Killer Croc, and a nuclear power plant. Grant Walker had millions of dollars and Mr. Freeze. Firefly has none of that. He just has his brains, and an abandoned factory.
Final Verdict?
Yeah, it's unlikely he'll be ruled a 'keep', but I think he at least warranted a discussion, and, personally, I'm leaning a
edited 5th Sep '15 2:03:10 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
A total has-been.
Mumm-Ra and Grune. ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Firefly, who always struck me as too much of a pathetic loser to truly measure up to villains like The Joker.
Firefly.
Speaking DC Monsters, it occurs to me that we'd want to move the Constantine tv show examples to the Arrowverse page since that show is a part of the Arrowverse.
Caesar
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Of course he doesn't measure up to The Joker, The Joker has at least a dozen appearances in the show. Firefly, along with everything else he did, attempted one of The Joker's more heinous crimes in the span of one episode, and has even more crimes afterwards. Sure, they're not as personal as some of The Joker's schemes, but again, minor villain vs. archenemy.
edited 5th Sep '15 8:52:40 AM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, that's what I'll do.
A total has-been.
Even in his episode, he didn't even really commit any dissimilar crimes to Joker's that still managed to measure up in heinousness. In any Batman media where Joker qualifies as a CM, another villain has to push the envelope in order to match him, as was the case with Scarecrow in the Arkham series. This guy, I feel, just didn't quite make the cut.
Re Mumm-Ra: I was actually planning on doing a Mumm-Ra post soon, but you’ve covered pretty much everything I wanted to bring up. Kudos! Just one thing I wanted to mention, Mumm-Ra is very strongly Lawful Evil, and his goal is to bring ideal order to the universe. When he’s talking about recruiting Kaynar and Addicus, his exact line is, "[They are] Wretched souls motivated only by base emotions and incarcerated by crimes vile, even to me. They are to be my new generals, Slithe." This line always rang hollow to me. Not so much a standard as it was a narcissist believing that their crimes are "justified" because his reasons are superior. But Mumm-Ra is very clearly established as a sadist, and, as noted, he’s a hypocrite who wants to recruit those two specifically because of their vile crimes, the fear they’ll induce, and their capacity to commit those crimes on his enemies. So yes, I will vote yes for Mumm-Ra. Btw, one thing bobg’s entry forgot, in the episodes that showed Mumm-Ra’s past when he ruled the universe, he kept his subjects enslaved by putting explosive collars around their necks. Literally obey or die.
Re Grune: As for Grune, I’m going to have to say no. I just don’t think he’s heinous by the standards of the story. Yes he betrays his people, but so does Vultaire in the last episode, siding with Mumm-Ra just so he can be on the winning side even if it means letting his flying city and it’s inhabitants be destroyed. Slithe is a bastard who flat-out tells his men they’re expendable and is willing to kill them if it means the Thundercats dying. Kaynar and Addicus meanwhile are both former Serial Killers with a penchant for eating other sentient creatures. In fact, Slithe, Kaynar and Addicus have all expressed a desire to, and have actually attempted, eating the Thunderkits. They all contribute to the heinous standard, and Grune actually struck me as less evil than Kayner and Addicus even if he technically did more onscreen.
Re Firefly: I’ll have to go with no. It doesn’t matter if he’s one of the few villains not to have a sympathetic reason for. The fact remains that Two-Face, Scarecrow, Mr. Freeze, Baby Doll, and Farmer Brown (again, not kidding, literally a dude named Farmer Brown who tries to destroy Gotham with giant mantises), have all tried to do it for various reasons and they all contribute to the heinous standard.
Mumm-Ra Grune Firefly
Any thoughts on Skull Face since Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain has been out for 4 days?
No, since the waiting period for new releases is 2 weeks. We'll discuss Skullface on the 15th.
edited 5th Sep '15 9:13:50 AM by VeryMelon
Alrighty then.
To Firefly. It sounds like he attempts Joker level or near Joker level crimes in all of his appearances. Even in his most tame act, he still tried to burn a number of guards to death. It sounds like he's as bad as he could be given his small number of appearances (only four) and limited resources (acting alone without any large amount of money). It says something when he spends all of his appearances attempting to commit mass murder, triple child murder, or burn people to death. Even Joker and Scarecrow took a little while to get that bad (though Joker soon went above and beyond in that regard), but this guy attempts mass murder FOUR TIMES in his first episode.
Mumma-Ra
Grune and Firefly
Easy to Mumm-Ra (another case of adaptational villainy it seen). As for the other villains, I'll give a middling to Grune with the other villains in mind, to Firefly, and I cannot be confident in Felix being a keeper with all the problematic discussion over him in the past, so to him as well.
Once more, I ask about Sedessa. I've got four s and a , and I'd like to resolve her before I get onto my next few candidates (the next of which I'm solely proposing to get off my chest; I seriously doubt he'll warrant good conversation).
edited 5th Sep '15 12:15:43 PM by Scraggle
I think I will give an to Felix unless Hargrove out does him next episode. The way I see it, Hargrove and Felix are tied for the position.
edited 5th Sep '15 11:48:18 AM by SatoshiBakura
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I guess I'll Sedessa. Multiple (dozens??) murders (and attempted ones), no real redeeming qualities...no reason not to, even if she's not an overwhelming qualifier.
for Felix and the Beast! Also I overlook at an entry of Mana Ouma an I believe needs some editing.
Here's what it is now:
At first, Mana Ouma was shown to be sweet, caring, and gentle, but eventually revealed to be evil and sadistic. When she was five, she was infected by the Apocalypse Virus, but managed to gain control of it. When her brother, Shu was born three years later, she developed a twisted obsession of him, claiming she was the "Adam" to her "Eve" to a new species. Many years later, when Mana found out that a boy she and Shu rescued developed romantic feelings for her, she simply tricks him into killing himself, before wearing that boy's blood as lipstick and confronting Shu, telling him that it is time to "mate". When Shu rejects her, out of fear for his own safety, she snaps and unleashes her virus throughout the country of Japan, killing millions of people before crystallizing herself. When she was reincarnated many years later, she tries to "mate" with Shu once more, even trying to rape him. When Shu finally stands up to her, she simply decides to spread the virus throughout the world, destroying it and killing millions (if not more). While she claims to have fallen in "love" with Shu, her "love" for Shu seems to just be a possessive desire, claiming he was already hers before he was even born, never showing any real affection for him nor giving him the consideration of how he feels. Obsessive, sadistic, lacking any morals, and willing to destroy the world just because a guy rejected her, she has all the worst aspects of a Yandere and an Omnicidal Maniac all wrapped up in one depraved individual.
Here is what I wanted to be changed to:
Mana Ouma is the type of person when you combine all the worst aspects of a Yandere and an Omnicidal Maniac. She was first shown to be sweet, caring, and gentle, but is revealed to be much more disturbing. When she was five, she was infected by the Apocalypse Virus, but managed to gain control of it. When her brother, Shu was born three years later, she developed a twisted obsession of him, claiming she was the "Adam" to her "Eve" to a new race. Many years later, when Mana found out that a boy she and Shu rescued developed romantic feelings for her, she tricks him into killing himself, before wearing that boy's blood as lipstick and confronting Shu, telling him that it is time to "mate". When Shu rejects her, she snaps and unleashes her virus throughout the country of Japan, killing millions of people before crystallizing herself. When she was reincarnated many years later, she tries to "mate" with Shu once more, even attempting to rape him. When Shu finally stands up to her, she decides to spread the virus throughout the world destroying it, killing billions (if not more). While she claims to have fallen in love with Shu, her "love" for Shu seems to just be a possessive desire, claiming he was already hers before he was even born, supporting her twisted ideology of ruling over a new race. In the end, she was just an extremely depraved individual, who was willing to destroy the world just because a guy rejected her.
How is it?
edited 5th Sep '15 12:48:54 PM by G-Editor
Caesar
What bobg said is basically what I'm trying to get across with Firefly. Even before his plan to destroy Gotham, he had an attempted body count in the hundreds.
As I said in the original effortpost, he doesn't have near the resources most of the other Batman villains have (money, minions, or specifically strong weaponry,) and yet he has one of the highest attempted body counts of any villain in the entire series. The guy's a nobody, and yet he tried to roast hundreds of people twice, tried to kill numerous people with smoke, and tried to incinerate millions of people for fun, in one episode.
Ha laughed about getting to personally roast children in his second episode, and did the same when trying to fry guards in his third appearance. It's not just trying to destroy Gotham that makes him a monster, it's that he tried to destroy Gotham (In his introductory episode, no less) along with having an attempted body count in the hundreds besides that, having a ball doing it, and having close to the least amount of resources of any Batman villain that does.
edited 5th Sep '15 1:31:32 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- Wow, high enough attempted bodycount for Firefly (and face it, being burned alive is a painful way to go), tried to kill kids, and is "getting physical" Attempted Rape? I'll give a either way.
- For the Mana Ouma rewrite.
edited 5th Sep '15 1:37:04 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I'm guessing he did it for fun, but is there any real reason he decided to kill those three kids? Was he eliminating witnesses? Or did he just do it because it was fun and it made him happy?
jjj
Caesar
I was thinking more like Domestic Abuse, seeing as he violently grabbed her and pulled her close to him while angrily stating he isn't going anywhere any time soon, then called her a tramp.
And while one could say rape implications are in his character what with the stripping her of her jacket before tying her up and planning on keeping her for himself, it's never more than an implication.
He was helping someone commit insurance fraud at the time, so probably to eliminate witnesses, but he was still enjoying it.
Firefly: 'Notices the kids' (Tauntingly) "Oh, too bad. Hope you kids like it hot. (Laughs, sets the place on fire, tries to leave while tauntingly waving bye to the kids.)
edited 5th Sep '15 1:41:05 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well, either way, trying to kill millions seems enough for me
Tenative to Firefly. Again, he has the Joker to compete with, but it's the effort that counts, and matter of resources.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
edited 5th Sep '15 2:58:49 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I think I'll do the Dandy rewrite and Discworld merging tomorrow, then the GI Joe subpage and this week's batch Tuesday.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts