During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The Singing Cat
What about Daimyo Kubota? I don't think he ever actually Pet the Dog, his forgiving Therkla was most likely Pragmatic Villainy in regards to his strongest and most useful subordinate.
On that matter, just to get the other Oot S villains out of the way. Xykon qualifies, Tarquin straddles the line, Thog's grip on reality is too tenuous for him to qualify, Nale and Sabine are kicked out by their genuine love for each other, Redcloak has believable goals in mind, and Miko was just misguided and overly zealous.
I'm too old to be cute dammit
Think of the mooks!
Based on the rest of the discussion, I take it that Kubota is a villain from Order Of The Stick? We're talking about a series where the main villain is looking to control gates that rein in something that's threatening all of existence, for his own personal amusement (in that he then would potentially control what it destroys). What does Kubota do that compares to that?
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Okay, so does anybody object for the removal of Hans and Stuart? If not, I will soon request to cut them.
Lost in Space
Kubota is not even close to a Complete Monster. Again, trying to add him betrays a sad misunderstanding of what the trope is about. On-panel, he only kills a single person. He does attempt to assassinate the leader of Azure City on multiple occasions, and his scheming for rulership is one of the factors that allows the goblins to conquer the city. Oh, and he consorts with an imp.
But for all that he's a minor villain, a fact lampshaded by one of the protagonists. His goals are petty, he's too much of a coward (or pragmatic) to get his own hands dirty, and he's a political schemer. He fails the heinous test on all counts.
edited 20th Sep '12 7:11:47 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I don't think a Big Bad Wannabe is capable of being a CM.
EDIT: Fucking autocorrect changed CM to C Nn.
edited 20th Sep '12 7:58:21 AM by ChaoticQueen
Unless anyone's got objections or suggestions for the changes for Monster.Pokemon, I'll commence within an hour. I know the games at least axe everything except for the two spinoff entries; just waiting on what Anime entries can stay for sure before merging.
EDIT: Games accounted for.
edited 20th Sep '12 9:13:31 AM by EarlOfSandvich
I now go by Graf von Tirol.
Hey, I have a question about animals. Let's say that a work portrayed an animal as evil. We never hear a word of dialogue from the animal, but its actions are obviously malicious and not just instinctual. So it knows exactly what it's doing. Could the animal count as a Complete Monster?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Would depend on the type of Big Bad Wannabe honestly.
Probably not, if only because of lack of characterisation. With rare exceptions, most Silent Antagonists don't count, and an animal is even less likely to count because we don't have any other data by which to measure their actions. The story would have to show a section from their POV or something to that effect.
@nrjxll
Frank from Once Upon A Time In The West. The original entry was heavily spoilered so I rewrote it to be less so.
EDIT: I saw a request to remove Col. Stewart (Die Hard 2) from the film subpage. Did we ever actually reach a consensus about him, the way we did about Hans? I seem to have forgotten it.
edited 20th Sep '12 9:33:59 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Good point. The only Silent Antagonist who I know counts is Kazou Kiriyama from the film version of Battle Royale. (The manga and novel version has an excuse.)
Now if there are anthropomorphic features, at least to the extent of including human-like intent and mannerisms, I suppose that's another thing. But something purely animal can't possibly qualify.
edited 20th Sep '12 9:32:37 AM by EarlOfSandvich
I now go by Graf von Tirol.
Think of the mooks!
Huh.. the Colonel from Die Hard 2 is on the page. I thought folks were just bringing him up as an example of just who wouldn't count. He does show loyalty to his men, as does Gruber. I would cut both.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Sure. As soon as we're using a human scale of morality to judge the character by, it becomes a lot easier to determine if they qualify, silent or not.
I can think of one or two others who come close as well (Michael Myers, Col. Reza) but that's about it, and god knows, Silent Antagonist is a pretty common trope.
Lost in Space
A villain needs some characterization to qualify as a Complete Monster. Otherwise it's just a robot murdering people.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
That doesn't mean the characterisation has to be in the form of speech, though it definitely helps. A good actor can say a lot with a shrug of their shoulders or the look on their face. And of course in a book you can always get a POV even from a Silent Antagonist.
Looked back at pages 128 onward for what entries from the Pokemon anime to merge. Am I missing anything?
I now go by Graf von Tirol.
I'm still fairly lost.
The Wanderer
Is Kodai still on the list?
Made sure to include the entry. Still taken directly from the anime page so changes can be nice before I request a lock on the page.
I now go by Graf von Tirol.
@ nrjxll
What are you lost about?
What's currently being discussed.
They have been jumping around a bit recently, haven't they?
Lizzid people!
In the Monster/Film subpage, it mentions the character IT as a complete monster. However, to me personally, he's too much of a comedic villain to be taken seriously. An example would be in the library scene when it made a joke about Prince Albert being in a can. He then does a very over the top laugh. Also, to discredit him as a complete monster in the film, he isn't shown murdering children. Let me explain. In the novel, it mentions him ripping off Georgie Denbrough's arm,and also giving brutal descriptions on the aftermath of the murders. In my opinion, what he does do maliciously is that he mocked Bill and blamed him for his brother's murder. But seriously, the Tim Curry potrayl of IT just seems to funny to be taken seriously.
EDITED—- Since groups cannot count.
edited 20th Sep '12 8:00:58 PM by MsCC93
Azor Ahai
Groups/ Always Chaotic Evil species cannot be added as examples.
edited 20th Sep '12 7:52:38 PM by Jordan
Hodor
I can't even remember who he was. This thread moves too fast lately.