Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

@ Beast: By all means, let's hear it. And for Fenton, is it more than merely implied? One of the things that made Freddy Krueger stand out in the original slasher debates was because he's a bloody child murderer—hurting children is most definitely not generic slasher villainy.

@ ACW: Good work. I'll go over those fan fic examples myself later. I'll say cut Hougen for now unless someone can attest that the scene with his brother is definitely not a redeeming trait.

And on the topic of old discussions, Nurse Ratched from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest has been buried for a while. Here's the next tally. Let me know if I missed anyone.

Cut (10)

Irene (post), Madrugada (post) Beast (post), Lord Xavius (post), Camberf (post), Morgenthaler (post), Occasional Exister (post), Rexpensive (post), Ambar Sonof Deshar (post), Doineedaname (post)

Keep (8)

Austin DR (post, Lightysnake (post), Bobg (post), Kyle Jacobs (Book Ratched) (post), Anew Man (post), Very Melon (post), Sanfranman (post), Scraggle (post)

Neutral/Undecided (2)

ACW, despoa

edited 29th Nov '14 8:10:43 AM by Morgenthaler

About Richard Fenton - again I fail to see how he can be generic - he isn't some psycho running around killing teens for no reason - here's what makes him stand out - he's a pedophilic former teacher who became obsessed with one of his students and decides he wants her for himself, so he ups and kills her entire family including her younger brother, the act itself isn't seen but we do see bodies (the brother was the first corpse we see). Throughout the film, after breaking out of prison, he begins looking for the protagonist again, killing her friends so he can have her to herself and kill anyone else unfortunate enough to get in his way. That's generic onto itself, but think of it like this - Michael Myers, only instead of wanting to kill Laurie and Jamie, wants to keep her to himself

I haven't read the original discussion on him so I don't what arguments were had against, but from what you describe I'd say it does sound like he goes the extra mile with his I Have You Now, My Pretty plan. There's a nearly identical example from When a Killer Calls who was discussed and kept for the same reason.

edited 29th Nov '14 8:27:23 AM by Morgenthaler

Yeah the only migrating factor I can think of is that Fenton has Mary Lou Maloney from two other Prom Night movies for competition. But keep in mind they are two different types of villains.

Fenton - A pedophile serial killer teacher obsessed with one of his students and wants to keep her for himself.

Mary Lou - A satanically empowered Alpha Bitch ghost who is primarily driven by spite, greed and lust.

I'm willing to reevaluate Fenton, but not Ghost. Ghost's Freudian Excuse, mental issues and severe inability to actively view the world in 'real' terms seems way too mitigating.

Ghost? From Ginger Snaps 2?

Okay, but what was Ghost's Freudian Excuse again ?

It's implied her grandmother abused her. Now, this is only possible, and given Ghost's mental state, might not be true.

But factor in everything, and no way can Ghost qualify. She's a mentally sick kid, not an incarnation of evil. Ginger in movie 3 is closer to this than she is.

Can I get some votes for Kadmilos?

edited 29th Nov '14 11:08:23 AM by Lightysnake

I'll give Kadmilos a vote . You say he's a demon/evil god, so how does one exactly know that they don't lack moral agency ?

It's never indicated he lacks it, and given how the other Gods in the pantheon have full moral agency...

Yes, but what I meant was how do we find out if a demon/deity has moral agency, on account of some demons being Made of Evil.

Also, anyone else of Fenton ?

Yes on Fenton.

I'm waiting to hear a bit more on Ghost. Because as of now, I'm not hearing any strong proof she was mentally ill, just a supposed implication. And implying doesn't always mean it's true. I'm leaning towards yes at the moment, to clarify.

Seriously? She's a child with severe mental issues. Multiple times in the film it's pointed out she can't tell fantasy from reality. She draws her reality from comic books and thinks she can use a completely uncontrollable werewolf as her personal attack dog.

Even without that, she doesn't begin to meet a heinous standard for the films. Doesn't even come close. The third film's Ginger leads a mass slaughter on a fort, Ginger in the first movie kills more people too.

edited 29th Nov '14 2:45:48 PM by Lightysnake

Yeah, it's pretty obvious she's mentally ill when you see her. First indication is that she talks to herself in the third person, as if it's going on in her head.

Calm down, dude. She's still the main villain of that particular movie as well.

Also, being a child does not mean anything whatsoever. It's highly possible for a child in a fictional movie to choose to be completely evil and beyond malicious. Without any mental illnesses. The age part is not relevant.

I hear it's "implied", but you haven't shown any proof whatsoever for me to believe that. Give some quotes, at least. Remember, you're trying to convince people who have not seen the movie whatsoever(a very key thing in these discussions. Anybody who seen it can easily vote. Everybody else needs to be informed of each factor with eloquent detail. It is not obvious to me this is the case. All I need is just some actual data to prove it's the case, and I can easily vote no. But saying it happened is not going to convince me or anyone who hasn't seen the movie. A bit of proof is required for those who are voting based upon your data only). Just saying she can't tell it doesn't help me to know that(that's not an argument that can convince me. Show, Don't Tell is severely key here in this situation). Actually show something about it. Quotes at least work, since clips are probably not available outside of illegal sources.

I can believe that she doesn't stand up to some villains among the same set of movies and canon. But the rest you haven't made a very convincing case besides "Just because". This is still why I'm leading towards yes. But you're free to list the actual crimes she commits compared to the other ones by each villain. That might be enough, but I still need actual information to vote. So far, no real information has been evident of requiring her to be cut that I can see. This is currently why I'm leaning towards a yes.

edited 29th Nov '14 2:56:48 PM by Irene

Okay, but I just (literally just) remembered a big migrating factor for Ghost - she loved her dog, Rocky and was upset when he was killed by a werewolf.

Can we be clear that it fuels her start of darkness, if you will(for that matter, was that why she went off the deep end? Some form of revenge, I mean)? That said, that's at least something that makes sense.

I'm still interesting in the other data, but that's the first thing that'll make me lean towards a no. Until the rest is given, I can't directly vote. Every bit counts, after all, and well-explained data is what I need to vote, no more, no less.

edited 29th Nov '14 3:07:49 PM by Irene

Her dogs death and nothing to do with her Start of Darkness. When we first see her, she's living in a rehab facility/hospital where her grandmother was being treated for the burn wounds that Ghost inflicted on her. Ghost's main companion was Rocky, who's death was like halfway through the film. When Rocky died, she gets angry at Brigitte, because she knew Brigitte was dealing with lycanthropy (of course, Brigitte didn't kill Rocky, it was the other werewolf stalking Brigitte). Point is she loved her dog, even after she burned her grandma alive, and like Hoffman from Saw there's not indication that she stopped loving Rocky after she went off the deep end. Ghost's reason for her insanity is not explained, it's just there.

edited 29th Nov '14 3:13:23 PM by Beast

Okay, that's enough to vote no. Actually clear she's not a true monster. It's impossible to tell if she really was mentally ill unless the actual movie went into this factor via a flashback or something where it directly tells us why she's in the hospital. Being there alone doesn't necessarily mean it, as it's possible for people to be there in a story while not actually being mentally ill. It can appear that way to other characters, or a malevolent force causing it, or even a case where they are truly evil, but the characters cannot comprehend how anyone can be like that without being mentally ill.

You get what I mean. Thank you for that key information.

So I'm not following Spider-Verse but based on the YMMV page it sounds like we may want to keep an eye on Daemos, Morlun's older, dumber brother. Not only is the big galoot the most sadistic member of the family, but apparently he's also the only one who's expressed interest in raping a Spider-totem rather than just killing them.

edited 29th Nov '14 4:05:46 PM by HamburgerTime

Yeesh.

Also, I've decided to pick up Final Fantasy Tactics just so we can finally settle Barrington.

I would like to note that Fenton has a higher bodycount than all the other villains in the Prom Night series except Mary Lou, and she only has more because she appears in two films instead of one.

@32866: AFAIK the remake shares essentially nothing, especially not continuity, with any of the original Prom Night films.

Also, for Kadmilos.

edited 29th Nov '14 5:55:29 PM by LordXavius

Fenton killed Donna(the main character),s family, including her little brother (offscreen but we see the corpses), which makes him a first degree child murderer. Now averting Infant Immortality is not that uncommon for horror or slasher movies, but keep in mind that the prom night remake was rated pg 13,so that is a bit of a surprise.

Plus he's a pedophile? Fenton.