Character Perception Evolution cleanup and maintenance

Rumple was already removed. I was just asking about the removal as the edit reason was odd to me. Though, like I said, I wasn't really advocating for adding him back.

Edited by Bullman on Jan 9th 2024 at 4:31:21 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

Also this was added to the Celestial Toymaker's entry on the Live Action TV page:

• The Celestial Toymaker, a one-off villain from a First Doctor story of the same name, was considered one of the show's best antagonists for decades thanks to reviews that praised the lost serial as a forgotten classic; there were even plans to bring him back for Season 23 before a BBC-imposed 18-month hiatus led to the season being completely rewritten. However, after a reconstruction of "The Celestial Toymaker" released and sank the story's reputation (with many now knowing it for its copious padding and racist elements, in particular the fact that he was designed like a Chinese Mandarin but played by a white actor), the titular villain would decline into curiosity status at most, with people praising Michael Gough's performance but considering his character an Orientalist relic of the show's Early Instalment Weirdness in the '60s. It's notable that when the Toymaker returned in a 14th doctor story, these now despised elements underwent a heavy Retcon; the 'Celestial' is dropped from his name, and he flips between mockeries of different earth accents - most prominently German - which, when combined with his bigoted comments, implied his original appearance was something closer to in-universe Yellowface.

Overall he counts but my main question is the bolded part. Wasn't that episode only released last month and even if it wasn't, I haven't seen much change about in opinion with regards to his original appearance due to the new episode?

Edited by Bullman on Jan 9th 2024 at 4:32:19 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

My thinking is that only stuff impacting how the character is seen should be subject to the five-year rule. I know that's how we do it on Condemned by History.

On another note, the entry noting MCU Thor's more comedic characterization falling from popularity was removed on the grounds that it doesn't cover the character as a whole. Thing is, the trope does cover specific iterations of characters.

I'd say re-add it, especially since Takai Watiki was pretty clear he intended for Thor: Ragnarok to be as much of a reboot as he could get away it

Agreed. You could re-add the example as said from the post so go for it.

I am fine with re-adding the Thor entry.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

Also regarding the Alain entry? https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16954760790A29312100&page=6#comment-130

I should have been more specific but I am saying I agree with the point and that it would be re-added to the page.

Edited by Echidna on Jan 9th 2024 at 8:15:58 AM

I'm having some trouble with this entry. Does it really count?

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• Sonic's snarky and more comedic characterization was once widely embraced by the fanbase, seen as perfectly fitting in with the game's Denser and Wackier tone, harkening back to how he was portrayed in English language media in The '90s and generally giving him some of the funniest lines in the game, most famously "No copyright law in the universe is going to stop me!". However, over time, the games of the decade would return to this characterization, regardless of whether it fit the tone of the game. This would in turn lead to many fans going back to the original portrayals in Colors and Generations and viewing it with a more critical lens, with many feeling that it made him more immature than funny at best and an uncaring Jerkass at worst; with many singling out the "Baldy Nosehair" gag^note a name coined by the Wisps that Sonic finds really hilarious as an example of bad humor. Greater knowledge of the original Japanese scripts (which portrayed him closer to how he was in previous games) did little to help.

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I admit, I think the main issue is whether or not a certain characterization of a character counts (and maybe I could use some better wording).

If someone is familiar with that work in question I suppose if enough character then it would be ok.

Edited by Echidna on Jan 9th 2024 at 8:34:58 AM

@Mariofan 99 The initial fan reception of Alain suffers what I call the "Red is the better than Ash" syndrome. And if Alain had been facing BW Ash, it would have been very little controversy (on contrary, I think a lot of praises since people wanted Virgil to beat Ash and not an idiot like Cameron). But since he was against an Ash that was the antithesis of the Memetic Loser perception, it's not surprising he would be generating a lot of hate.

Keep in mind, Alain was introduced fairly early on in the XY days, in April, 2014. By that point, Ash only had a Froakie and a Fletchling alongside Pikachu and one badge, and he was still reeling from the BW stigma (not helped by Viola's Surskit managing to beat Pikachu in the first Gym Battle). While many did see Ash being far better than he was in BW, there were many who still doubted that his "cool" persona and clothes would amount to anything.

But when Alain finally crossed over into the main anime, Ash's team was practically almost fully evolved. He had Greninja, Talonflame, Hawlucha, (Goodra, who was currently at the swamps), and Noibat was going to evolve soon. And this was around the time that many legitimately believed that Ash had a serious chance of winning the League. The negative stigma Ash had was being washed away and with that, so too did the desire for a more "mature" protagonist for Pokémon. People felt more comfortable rooting for Ash, and they began highlighting qualities Alain doesn't show that often, such as being openly friendly, smiling, and optimistic.

I would personally suggest rewriting it to be more about Alain's character archetype. This Darker and Edgier Stock Shōnen Hero with a Charizard that fans wanted to follow over Ash back in 2013/2014. And I do mean Darker and Edgier, the kind you see on Pixiv with Red. The Pixiv Red who never smiles, always wins battles with Charizard, and would take out the trash with Ash. And just like that interpretation of Red, that has changed considerably when Ash "borrows" some of their traits but still remain optimistic and true to his original character.

Edited by Shadao on Jan 9th 2024 at 5:51:57 AM

While a nice analysis it doesn’t really answer the question of if people retroactively look at Alain’s early appearances differently. And if that also applies to the wave of hatred after he beat ash

It's more of what Alain represented back then that's more crucial, not necessarily his earliest appearance. He was everything the anti-Ash fans wanted: Older, serious, broody, and badass. He doesn't really have a comedic side like Leon. The fact he got a Mega Charizard X, right after Red from Origins showcased his Charizard to beat Mewtwo, made him the logical substitute for "Badass Red".

But if you look at the current Pokémon media, now having gone beyond the anime, Alain is really an outlier of Pokémon protagonists. Most protagonists are just everyday people. Liko and Roy, for example, are even less experienced than Ash despite being in a more serious anime (for the most part) while Pokémon Concierge is about a girl working at the resort with day-to-day slice of life adventures. Even the games have gone to downplay villainous teams and world-ending plots in favor of exploring the world and befriending Pokémon. Yet no one is clamoring for a darker, edgier and broody protagonist anymore (as far as I'm aware).

So Alain really stands out as this edgy trainer protagonist that represents a time where Pokémon fans wanted to be taken seriously and join the big boy Shonen club of Dragon Ball and Naruto. Today, you rarely hear that anymore in the Pokémon fandom. So, putting aside the controversies, it seems the biggest sticking point fans have with Alain (on Reddit at least) is whether or not he's a fine character on his own... or if he's an OP edgelord uber trainer trying to hard to be serious.

Edited by Shadao on Jan 10th 2024 at 1:58:50 AM

I'd like to add an example:

• Tales of Symphonia: Colette was once seen as an egregious case of Damsel Scrappy, bringing the plot to a screeching halt every time she needed rescuing throughout the story despite possessing godly powers and very rarely using those powers to try to help herself or her friends out of their binds. Fans decried her as a frustrating character that would have been better off left behind. However, as time progressed, more fans became willing to forgive Colette due to her manipulative upbringing by the Church of Martel and her young age making her extremely self-effacing and thus very passive. While she remains a Base-Breaking Character, there are many more fans willing to go to bat for Colette than there were at the game's release.

Oissu!

Seems fine to me

Where should a character go on a page if the reason for their CPE involves multiple forms of media, and it's from a franchise that currently lacks a page? Here are some examples of what I mean and I'd like to know where to add them (or if they're even valid examples:

• Eon, the Big Bad of the Live-Action Adaptation Ben 10: Race Against Time was initially seen as an unremarkable Generic Doomsday Villain, with many decrying him for his ugly costume and cliché ridden motives of wanting to possess Ben Tennyson so he could use The Hands of Arrmaggedon to revive his Dying Race, the Chronians. However, fans began to gain a new appreciation for Eon after Ben 10: Ultimate Alien made him Canon Immigrant but did so in a way that completely discarded the character's previously established past and motives. The episode "Ben 10,000 Returns" would establish Race Against Time to be canon, but retcon Eon into being a version of Ben Tennyson from a Bad Future who wished to become the only version of Ben in the multiverse. As a result of causing a giant Continuity Snarl with Race Against Time (it was stated within "Ben 10,000 Returns" that the Eon in the show and movie are the same person), alongside the new backstory being seen as even bigger Cliché Storm fans have begun to look back on the live-action take of the character with more fondness. In particular, fans have begun to praise Christien Anholt's conviction to the role despite the script's failings. These fans now see Eon's original depiction as an effective Tragic Villain who had a complex but brilliant plan behind his methods. Many fans lament that the writers chose to completely change the character for the shows that followed, instead of building on the foundation the movie presented.

• When Ahsoka Tano debuted in Star Wars: The Clone Wars she was widely seen as The Scrappy for being a Bratty Half-Pint who didn't think through her actions, a Spotlight-Stealing Squad, and being a severe case of Remember the New Guy?, as nothing in the franchise prior hinted that Anakin ever had an apprentice. Ahsoka would be redeemed her in the eyes of fans following her Character Development in later seasons, with this development retroactively making her earlier behavior a step towards her Coming of Age Story. Many fans were elated she lived through the events of the show, when it widely assumed she would have to perish at some point, with this praise getting furthered by her portrayal as The Mentor in Star Wars Rebels. However, following the latter show's conclusion, Ahsoka would receive a divisive depiction in later Live-Action shows courtesy of Rosario Dawson, with these portrayals causing the character to once again fall into Base-Breaking Character territory. Many argue Ahsoka's oversaturation has made her the spotlight hogger she was once accused of being with many arguing it would've made for cleaner storytelling if the character had been killed off in Clone Wars or Rebels, instead of living past the Original Trilogy's events. In particular, this group has since highlighted the latter show introducing Time Travel into the franchise to prevent her death at the hands of Vader as a mistake that veers into Creator's Pet territory.

Edited by Mariofan99 on Jan 16th 2024 at 11:08:03 AM

I would say the original medium unless they are better known for the secondary medium. If that makes sense.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

Okay, also can I add Ahsoka now? Or do I have to wait until 5 years since her Live-action debut (November 2025) has passed? I never understood if the five-year rule refers to the time since the character's debut or the time since the latest installment the entry mentions.

Edited by Mariofan99 on Jan 16th 2024 at 2:00:06 PM

It should be five years after the character's debut, last I've heard.

Trust no one.

Okay and based on what was said before Ahsoka would go in the Western Animation or Film section? I'm confused when you say "original medium" if you're referring to the franchise as a whole or what the character made their debut in. Granted Star Wars will likely one day accumulate enough entries for its own page but I'm talking about the here and now.

Bumping this cause I want more opinions.

She/Her | Currently cleaning N/A

Not familar with the series but if the Flanderization has lead to people condemning the earlier potrays I'd say it counts, if those are still liked then I'd say cut

I'm not too familiar with the character either, but I have a few Reddit posts talking about the character, and most of the opinions lean more into fans preferring the character's earlier portrayals over her later ones, rather than fans re-evaluating the character for the worse. Basically the opposite of Rescued from the Scrappy Heap.

And besides, Angelica isn't the only Trails character to embody the "sexual harassment= funny" trope (Oliver says hi), which in on itself is a problem that applies to the series as a whole, not just Angelica, especially since one of the playable characters (Renne) is a survivor of childhood sexual assault.

"The name's Uzume Tennouboshi! Yeah, it's pretty badass, I know." - Uzume, Megadimension Neptunia VII

I am honestly not sure about Ahsoka in general. While her live action appearances are polarizing, I think if the consensus is that her earlier character arc in the Clone Wars and Rebels aren't viewed more critically, then it's not CPE and more Arc Fatigue.

Edited by xie323 on Jan 17th 2024 at 11:02:49 AM

I’ve seen people turn on Ahsoka and feel Dave Finoni is playing favorites with her, though I guess it’s possible they always hated Ahsoka and are more willing to say it now