Discussing the Incorruptible Pure Pureness trope

The trope is about heroes who are completely incorruptible, which is the polar opposite of a Complete Monster, a villain that is completely irredeemable, and it makes me feel frustrated with the thought that the Incorruptible Pure Pureness trope has been abused a lot for some time.

For example, Batman from The Dark Knight is listed under the trope because "he never kills anyone", but he interrogated the Joker with needless, brutal force and even told him that he was considering dishonoring his code of not killing, and also refused to save Ra's Al Ghul and instead let him die: "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you." Those two are definitely corrupting qualities, so that proves he is not incorruptible.

I'm also quite sure there are a bunch of heroes currently under the trope who don't stand out at all even if they are likable, only doing generic heroism. There's also the possibility that some of these heroes have minor corrupting factors, lack a moral agency (either by being programmed to be good or are literally Made of Good), or the most heroic actions they did that'd push them past the extra mile are purely Offstage Heroism or Fridge Brilliance.

So, with all that pointed out, do you agree we should make a long-term cleanup forum for the Incorruptible Pure Pureness trope as we did with Complete Monster?

Edited by Misry6 on May 29th 2022 at 12:55:03 PM

We have this from the Red Dwarf episode "Demons and Angels''

"Played as a negative. The "High" crew have no ability to recognize ill intentions and do things like apologize for getting their blood on their killer's knife."

Now, I'm finding this entry's presence quite questionable, and they did not sound particularly admirable.

I do not mind this cleanup existing for a trope that possibly needs renaming.

Edited by MasterJoseph on May 29th 2022 at 7:44:52 AM

I don't mind a cleanup thread but if what you actually mean is an EP thread like CM has then count me out.

Before any cleanup threads get opened, it might be for the best to do a Wick Check first.

That can be done by looking through here.

Also see How to Do a Wick Check.

That sounds like a good idea. I've looked through it and there appear to be a lot of examples in there. What shall we do with them?

Perhaps we can open a sandbox.

If you're asking how to do a wick check, that's explained on the page I linked above. In simple terms, you just get a representative sample of the wicks (most often 50, sometimes more) and categorize them based on usage.

See my recent Courtroom Antic Wick Check for an example.

Honestly I don't mind at all at this

Okay, it's up.

I would, uh... Suggest changing the folders a little, there? Mine was specific to the trope I checked.

Tried a small update.

I wonder if some of the questionable examples are using Pure Is Not Good as their definition of "pure" (i.e. being single minded or unwavering dedication towards a particular ideal, even if that ideal is not a positive one).

Having recently rewatched this, the work considers Batman incorruptible in that he's going to keep fighting for Gotham (easy shoehorn since Joker himself says it during the High-Altitude Interrogation), but not pure. The page quote should definitely go.

But yeah, I doubt most antiheroes qualify for this.

I agree, that quote doesn't fit. Even if Joker said that Batman was incorruptible, that has nothing to do with actually being incorruptible if the latter still has factors that mitigate that.

Edited by Misry6 on May 30th 2022 at 3:40:15 AM

So, uh, that wick check. I might work on it later but I might end up redoing all the folders entirely.

Here's the thing, when I showed you mine I wasn't intending for it to be used as an exact format. Every wick check is going to be different based on the trope being checked and the usage we're finding.

Let's draw up a list of required traits that embody IPP, and then we can start writing EPs for characters to determine if they fit the criteria.

Edited by E1craZ4life on Jun 24th 2022 at 11:09:23 AM

Incorruptible Pure Pureness cleanup wouldnt be as complicated as Complete Monster as there's much less baggage to worry about. Stuff like heinous standard doesn't need to looked at.

How I understand it, it's for characters who have either never done even a single even remotely malicious thing ever in their life in a setting where many others in the same situation have. Or a character who has had some kind of In-Universe confirmation via possibly supernatural/mystical means that there really isn't a single shred of evil in them (Goku being a good example, having done several things that require absolute pure of heart).

So let me put my foot down here on something: why does this trope need an EP format like Complete Monster? That trope and Magnificent Bastard had long-term threads and the specific created over years of trial-and-error and because (for Complete Monster in particular) it was deemed the trope literally could not survive without more regimented criteria. Incorruptible Pure Pureness is not, never has been in that dilemma. I can see the use of a short-term wick check and clean-up, but exactly that: short term.

So I'm officially putting it out there: like with Hate Sink and The Woobie, this trope does not need the effortpost system.

For reference, people tried to create effortpost systems for both Hate Sink and The Woobie. It turned into a giant, pointless debacle that resulted in both threads junking the system because it wasn't needed. It's not even a subjective trope (and no attempts should be made to make it YMMV). It would make the actual cleanup a lot more expedient if you guys made this a short-term project.

Edited by Scraggle on Jun 24th 2022 at 10:33:49 AM

It doesn't need an EP. It's just an easy fallback for people who aren't familiar with other cleanup threads.

We never did do that wick check.

It doesn't need EP format at all. Not every cleanup requires EPs, only CM and MB because they are much more complex as tropes.

I'm glad people understand that. I'm just putting my foot down on this ahead of time in lieu of some of the above posts to ensure we don't get a repeat of what happened with the HS/Woobie threads.