Reorganization: Web Games

Credit goes to Piterpicher for the entry. His was next on the queue so I'm posting it in his honor.

Web Games have an index, which is fine in theory, lots of other web media does, like Web Animation, Webcomics, and Web Video. However, the definition of a web game is turning more and more meaningless with each passing year.

Simply put, web games don't receive any special treatment. They don't have their own namespace or their own section on trope pages. The page is listed on Video Game Genres, but it's also split to genres as it's not actually one itself.

Additionally, with the death of Adobe Flash, a lot of the games that were formerly easily playable online either require the use of a browser extension (which I found to be unsafe) or a provider that puts the files on your computer. Many other engines also seem to not work like they did. It's why people don't link to web games usually, and honestly I wish I didn't either and gets on my nerves when I make idle game pages (when more of them become unavailable there in the future).

Even then, a ton of games on platforms where you could play them online have official free downloads released even when they're actiive (see sites like itch.io and Gamejolt). This makes the web game distinction even less meaningful.

If we had a page on HTML 5, Microsoft Silverlight, Pico 8, etc. a lot of pages could likely be moved to a more precise location. We already have Adobe Flash and The Modding Tree. Games without a particular platform are usually going into the Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game category. Flashpoint has a pretty comprehensive list of platforms here. I've started a sandbox for Web Games and it's progressing quite well, with game sorted by platform instead of per genre for those UN pages. Note how much I've already found on Flash, THE defunct platform.

I would suggest that this page were cut, but due to having 10,000 inbounds, it can be redirected to Video Games. And if some pages are left indexless, it doesn't really matter since there's no "this page lacks an index" warning at the bottom anymore.

Opening

Macron's notes

I'll be honest, I don't really see an issue, we don't need to deny it's a thing because many games have become Lost Media or it's not as popular as a platform for developers today, even though it's still in use.

But I'd remove it from Video Game Genres since it's not a genre, merge "Web Game Developers" and "Gaming Sites" and remove outside links as we don't need free advertisement from non-Creators. Maybe also add something to the description so it won't feel too short.

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 28th 2022 at 4:36:47 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Agreed that the description needs beefing up. Web games have a long history that I'm sure we can document some of like we do with music genres.

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

In my opinion it should be gotten rid of simply because it's largely easy to split and obsolete. We don't have a Console Video Games list either, but a Video Game Systems list and separate pages for each, and those also get obsolete and either require reproductions or emulation to make new copies if manufacturing stops. The web game engines and their history can be covered on a page for each (because it's not like this page has one). Also, more than half the index isn't really accurate if the engine isn't playable on the web (at least 63/113 would be a pretty poor rate if we were talking misuse for a trope).

Edited by Piterpicher on Apr 28th 2022 at 3:41:43 PM

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)

I'd be fine with Adobe Flash Games and HTML 5 Games being made, though it feels like a TLP action. We already have .io Game. No idea what to do with the rest.

Agree that being "made with Flash" doesn't always make something Web, but I don't really see which ones are inaccurate.

Note that we have UsefulNotes.RPG Maker.

This basically suggests to re-sort Web Games by engine and not genre, which I don't see as necessary and for many may be difficult to determine.

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 28th 2022 at 4:48:17 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Flashpoint has a very good classification system for games archived there which I used for this list that helped me determine them, as listed here. itch.io and Gamejolt also say what engine the games use. Plenty others are likely covered by .io Game and Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. As for the "difficult to determine" bit, only 14 landed on the "nowhere but has other indexes" and only 4 on the "Nowhere" category (and only 1 may ultimately count since all games other Games By53xy 83457 have possible indexes).

For the record, UsefulNotes.Adobe Flash, UsefulNotes.Java, UsefulNotes.The Modding Tree (a sub-engine of HTML/HTML 5), and UsefulNotes.Unity have pages. Right now I don't think every engine listed on Flashpoint is likely to get a page any time soon (especially since some are presentations or tools rather than games), but I'm likely to make UsefulNotes.Adobe Shockwave, UsefulNotes.HTML (Flashpoint puts any entry that doesn't contain frameworks or plugin-enabled content as "HTML", so it likely wouldn't be an HTML5 page per se), UsefulNotes.Microsoft Silverlight, and UsefulNotes.Pico 8 at the very least.

As for the use of such pages, a console's limitations and architecture can greatly affect how a game plays, looks, and functions. Similar thing happens here. A Pico-8 game is drastically different than something made in Silverlight for instance (the former resembles a retro computer like the Commodore 64, while the former is a 2000s engine that originally focused on streaming).

Edited by Piterpicher on Apr 28th 2022 at 4:05:35 PM

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)

I like the idea of overhauling what essentially was "Online Flash Games" to an index of game engines. I'm not particularly interested in if it is merged with a broader article or kept to "Online Game Engines".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Rewire proposal:

Basic description

1996-2001: early era, Flash mainly as an interactive animation

2001-2012: Web games as a casual gaming platform, second generation MMORPG, hosting sites like Newgrounds and Kongregate and etc

2012-2020: Decline, death of Flash, rise of HTML and Unity, something about .io Game and ports to Itch io

Epilogue

Web Game Engines:

• Adobe Flash
• Adobe Shockwave
• Java
• Microsoft Silverlight
• The Modding Tree
• Pico 8
• Unity

Web Game Developers And Publishers:

• Adult Swim Games
• Adventure Games Live
• Armor Games Studios
• Bigpoint
• Fig Hunter
• jmtb02
• Homestar Runner
• Kongregate
• Molleindustria
• Neopets
• Newgrounds
• Nicky Case
• Nitrome
• NMcCoy.net
• Pastel Games
• Puzzle Clubhouse
• scriptwelder
• Square Enix

Web Games:

Games that don't fit elsewhere

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 28th 2022 at 5:39:13 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

I like it!

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

You know what, this might work. If we clarify to put all games in the engine/online-based genre or category they belong (there should be indexed links to .io Game, Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game, and Defunct Online Video Games, though the former two aren't always on the web so they may not count completely). We'll see if that part I'm suggesting is needed, though. Hopefully the page doesn't get too long if we do this restructuring.

Edited by Piterpicher on Apr 28th 2022 at 5:18:38 PM

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)

Well, I guess the split between Online Games (the super-index to Web Games) and Web Games in particular is that Web Games are browser dependent.

Edited by Malady on Apr 28th 2022 at 9:03:31 AM

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576

Oh, despite Web Games being listed on Online Games, I never thought to check it. Foolish of me, I suppose.

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)

I like the rewire proposal.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

On the sandbox, is it necessary to list games that are already on the Adobe Flash or Unity pages? It seems kind of redundant. If we decide to cut them from the sandbox, I split them up to make it easier.

edits:

1. What are the "Nowhere" and "Nowhere but has other indexes" folders used for?
2. They seem to be used for pages without a clear platform, with "other indexes" referring to those besides Web Games.
3. Gyossait, Perdition, and probably others are made with Stencyl. Should we have a page for that?
4. Finished the Platforming Games folder. Also, would it be fine to merge the contents of the Adobe Flash and Unity folders with the indices they currently have?

Edited by N1KF on Apr 29th 2022 at 2:42:25 PM

We could probably merge the folders from those pages. Likely to be more efficient that way.

I didn't include Stencyl because I didn't know about it too much and thought web games with it overlapped with Flash (like Idle Pro Gamer 2 is made in Stencyl, but is ostensibly a Flash game and labeled as such in Flashpoint). But since it's apparently in use for non-Flash games as well, it could have a page, just telling what games are made in it won't be as easy.

Edited by Piterpicher on Apr 29th 2022 at 1:16:11 PM

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)

Sandbox.Web Games is just works sorted by engines in case Web Games gets cut. Since the discussion leans on keeping the page but reorganizing it, I guess it needs another sandbox to work on the description at, or if Piterpicher is fine to use that one to host the history lesson draft and indexing.

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 29th 2022 at 9:17:31 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Oh, it looks like I misunderstood what the rewire proposal entailed. That was what I was giving permission for the thread to do, since that was where the consensus was going, even if it means cutting Web Games itself.

And apparently I forgot to actually star the thread, so that's been corrected.

Edit: I tweaked the mod post accordingly.

Edit: Also, if we decide to get rid of the Web Games page after moving its contents elsewhere, I think it would be better to turn it into a redirect instead of being cut entirely.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 29th 2022 at 1:24:24 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

I'd be fine if that was used as the history draft. And yes, I'll probably lean towards keeping that page while putting every game that can be part of a specific engine elsewhere.

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)

For reference, the template for the page rewrite is this one, I'd assume when people say they agree they've meant that post, so the idea is to come up with a good description for Web Games and hard-split the index into subpages. If there's still confusion, we can just crowner between rewriting and cutting.

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 29th 2022 at 1:16:17 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Fantage is listed as an MMORPG on the sandbox, but the page doesn't reference being an RPG or is indexed as one. It doesn't seem to be an RPG, so I changed the folder label to "MMO". We should probably have a page for those; it even appears as a supercategory in Online Games.

What do you mean by this? Does this mean copying the contents of Adobe Flash and similar indexes to Sandbox.Web Games? If so that seems kind of redundant, since it's already indexed on the bottom of the work page. It already takes up the vast majority of the page length, so I'd support cutting those lists on the sandbox since the work is already done.