To-do list:
- Move wicks to a trope listed on the Moral Dissonance disambiguation page if they fit, and remove them if they don't. For reference purposes, here's the list of tropes on the disambiguation page:
- Batman Grabs a Gun: A good guy makes an exception to their moral code treated as O.O.C. Is Serious Business.
- Became Their Own Antithesis: A character embodies the very thing that their previous moral code stood against.
- Broken Aesop: The work breaks their own moral message by having its narrative conflict resolved by the very thing it preaches against.
- Designated Hero: The work portrays the character as a paragon of virtue when their actions are anything but heroic.
- Designated Villain: The work portrays the character as reprehensible, even though they don't do anything that warrants that label.
- Hypocrite: The character preaches one thing and acts in a way that contradicts it.
- Jerkass Ball: Someone acts uncharacteristically cruel or selfish for the sake of enabling Conflict.
- Out-of-Character Moment: A moment when character acts in a way contradictory to their usual morality.
- Karma Houdini: When a character don't get punished for their reprehensible actions.
- Moral Myopia: A character is portrayed as unsympathetic/morally wrong for not holding themselves to their own stated morality.
- Protagonist-Centered Morality: The protagonist is subject to different moral standards than other characters.
- Unintentionally Unsympathetic: When a character is intended to be seen as sympathetic but the audience doesn't think they are.
- Values Dissonance: What is totally acceptable or even applauded for in a particular culture might be seen as reprehensible by other cultural standards.
- What the Hell, Hero?: A good guy is called out by in-work characters for failing to live up to their moral code.
Upon looking at the page, I noticed a lot of complaining, and started a wick check (which was later completed by a few other tropers while I was on a brief hiatus from the site) to see if the wicks had similar problems.
What the wick check found instead was a serious misuse problem. The quick results are as follows:
- There were 12/50 correct examples with not much complaining, or 24%
- There were 4/50 complaining examples, or 8%
- There were 25/50 misused examples, or 50%
- There were 8/50 ZCEs, or 16%, and
- There were 1/50 other examples, or 2%
After returning from my hiatus, I was surprised at the misuse count. Looking through the misused wicks, a common form of misuse seems to be examples where no hypocrisy occurred, and the offending examples simply complaining about the alleged immorality of the actions of the characters. Some wicks also had overlap with Values Dissonance.
My first proposed solution for this trope would be to move this trope to YMMV. I was surprised it wasn’t already when I saw it. My second proposed solution would be to possibly rename the trope to a more indicative name, since “Moral Dissonance” could be interpreted to mean that a character is inherently immoral. An alternative name (which I haven’t been able to think of any) could help with the misuse. Finally, the trope could be expanded, though I strongly oppose this decision as I fear it would lead to more complaining entries.
What does everyone else think should be done here?
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 16th 2022 at 5:55:49 AM
And I disagree turning this into YMMV, as the definition would attract complaining (i.e. the hero doesn't subscribe to the audience's moral code, and that's bad)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Not really. That's already Designated Hero. Moral Dissonance would be for the audience thinking the hero is a hypocrite. It has nothing to do with personal morals.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
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Re Hypocrite: I've seen it be used as a Pothole Magnet, so there's also the problem of people potholing it to any instance of hypocrisy on the wiki.
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I maintain that the current definition of this trope is too narrow, and the valid examples can probably be moved to Moral Myopia ("It's okay if I do this thing I tell others is wrong") or Hypocrite.
Also, even though all the elements are objective, it is still inherently negative, and easily attracts a Holier Than Thou attitude where the viewers go "the character is not called out for being a hypocrite even though they totally should".
Edited by Adept on Dec 11th 2021 at 9:31:31 PM
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Like I said on the other thread, the main thing that makes this subjective to me is that hypocrisy is pretty context dependant, or is part of proving a character isn't actually heroic, or what have you. That's why I feel it would either need to be YMMV (the audience pointing out the hypocrisy and possibly disagreeing) or called out in the narrative somehow. Otherwise you get a lot of cherrypicking.
Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 11th 2021 at 10:22:56 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Calendar enthusiast
If it has to be called out in the narrative, doesn't that just make it What the Hell, Hero?? I guess Moral Dissonance could be pointed out by the narrative even if none of the characters bring it up, but one option to cover those would be a slight expansion to WTHH.
Ukrainian Red Cross
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Yeah, by "pointed out" I don't think it always has to be another character doing it. It can also be in the form of a Hypocrisy Nod, or the narrative itself framing the action as something dark and wrong and bad for said character to do. It's all still pretty situational still, but I guess my main concern is scenarios like...
"In episode 1, Bob said that it was wrong to kill people, but then he kills Emperor Evulz during the finale!"
Which might be hypocritical but it also might be a variety of other things (Shoot the Dog, Protagonist Journey to Villain, O.O.C. Is Serious Business, or even proof that Bob was just lying about his stance in episode 1). A hero breaking their own moral standards isn't necessarily hypocritical of them, and there are reasons it might be done beyond bad writing or intentional dissonance (such as in the case of the villain needing to die to save the entire universe).
If this trope is objective, it should hone in on the intentional dissonance part, not just because I don't want accidental examples, but because I don't think we should allow situations where the audience is spotting hypocrisy while ignoring the context that allowed for such hypocrisy.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
I think the differences between Moral Dissonance and Designated Hero is the former are just moments and the latter is the character overall.
The one thing keeping Moral Dissonance separate from Hypocrite is the lack of narrative awareness. But to my knowledge Hypocrite does not currently require it be intentional or acknowledged.
Awhile ago I asked how Hypocrite was supposed to be separate from Moral Dissonance and Moral Myopia but that fizzled out. Maybe Hypocrite should be a super trope only used when MD, MM, or other hypocrisy trope don't apply?
That might work. It's used for any hypocritical moment that doesn't fit in Hypocritical Humor, Moral Myopia, and Hypocrisy Nod.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Ehhh, as much as I'd love to fix all the issues with Hypocrite, it needs a thread of its own before I'd feel comfortable tackling it. Surely there must be some way we can fix Moral Dissonance without having to stop and deal with Hypocrite...
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Given that the name is almost a synonym with Values Dissonance, I can see where some of the confusion comes from. A name that sets the two apart would be useful.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
"Informed Morality"? "Informed Moral Code"? "Informed Morality Statement"?
Informed Attribute and its sub-tropes show just because it's inherently unintentional doesn't mean it's YMMV. Moral Dissonance is similar so maybe Informed is where it should go.
However, MD can be one-off moments while Informed must be consistent. Thoughts?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Dec 14th 2021 at 9:13:10 AM
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
The Informed Attribute tropes are little different, since it's about the narrative claiming something that isn't supported by the work itself. Moral Dissonance isn't about the narrative calling an amoral character moral, it's more about the character breaking a moral code they themselves have established. It's the narrative being inconsistent, rather than just lacking evidence.
Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 14th 2021 at 12:15:27 PM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Batman Grabs a Gun is similar, but different in that the narrative/character are aware they're breaking their moral code and play their angst/conflictedness for dramatic effect. Moral Dissonance is doing it with no awareness, reason, or payoff, hence is being bad writing.
Thought, maybe Moral Dissonance is too similar to Unintentionally Unsympathetic to warrant being it's own trope?
Logic Girl
What about tropes like Godzilla Threshold, Inevitably Broken Rule, Dangerous Forbidden Technique, etc?
Like, if early on in the movie, Bob tells Alice not to do something, and then later in the movie, he tells her that she needs to do it to prevent an Earth-Shattering Kaboom.
That wouldn't be Moral Dissonance, would it?
Edited by Unicorndance on Dec 19th 2021 at 10:51:32 PM
For every low there is a high.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Bumping because discussion kind of died. Are there any other proposed solutions anyone has? If not, is there enough material to make a crowner with?
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Sounds good on paper (he/him)
If anyone compiles a list of crowner options, post it and I'll get to work on it. If the thread needs more time, then that's fine as well.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
I think the solutions suggested thus far were: disambiguate and make into YMMV, but neither has gained any traction.
Edited by Adept on Jan 2nd 2022 at 3:16:16 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Crowner hooked with disambiguating and making YMMV listed. The two are mutually exclusive.
If I missed anything, feel free to add it to the crowner.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
RJ Savoy
I voted for disambiguating because the trope has no clear purpose. It was made to cover the same ground as Designated Hero, when the narrative's framing conflicts with what is happening in the story, but was always rather vague and now DH/DV are better defined duplicates of it.
There may be space for an item of "Informed Morality" not covered by DH/DV (maybe as a supertrope) but it would be better to start off it TLP.
Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Calling in favor of disambiguating, as suggested here
.
So what tropes should be listed?
Post 8 listed Designated Hero, Karma Houdini, Hypocrite and Became Their Own Antithesis and I suggested Designated Villain and Moral Myopia in addition to that, but would like more input.
Moral Myopia is when it is internal to make them unsympathetic so it's a contrast to Moral Dissonance as opposed to replacement.
Broken Aesop is another addition as it is about undermining the good guys message.
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jan 14th 2022 at 3:36:23 AM
Crown Description:
What should be done with Moral Dissonance?
I'm not sure if I would fully agree with that requirement for Hypocrite as there are cases where a work makes it clear they are hypocritical but don't feel the need to point it out but that is a discussion for another day.
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