Needs Help: Punk Punk

How does your definition of Formicapunk compare to Cassette Futurism?

Its the same thing just different name, Punk Punk agrees with that too.

One thing that I think we should come up with a clear definition for Punk Punk. It seems that a lot of the issues we're discussing here come from the fact that there's no clear definition over what is considered Punk Punk and what isn't.

I will reiterate post 73

Thats it thats the definition.

We have 2 sections like we have now, established genres that were created outside of TV Tropes like Steampunk, Cyberpunk and Clockwork Punk, and second section for TV tropes originals.

I don't see how Cyberpunk follows this definition. I read it as technological dystopia. Please elaborate.

To be perfectly frank, the definition is pretty much "this setting ends in -punk."

I thought we'd kind of been over that already: the term "-punk" started with Cyberpunk (which was specifically "relatively near-future, Information Age-inspired dystopia") but then the dystopian part was discarded and the "-punk" started getting applied to "setting revolving around a particular fantastic concept, especially as outgrowth of real technology beyond all physical possibility" (e.g. Steampunk, which tends to be a whimsical and fairly upbeat world based around thermodynamics- and materials science-violating use of steam power).

I think The Other Wiki might be a little helpful here: turns out they have a page on cyberpunk derivatives.

I would be okay with using this as a baseline. I do not like post 73.

edited 7th May '18 6:16:36 PM by StarSword

I also find ^ this definition more approachable.

I find it similar to how I defined it in [1] and [2].

edited 7th May '18 8:41:42 PM by AnotherDuck

^ Not seeing it in your definition. This sentence from 82 does it for me: a world built on one particular technology that is extrapolated to a highly sophisticated level. — everything else seems extraneous.

Well, I didn't mean just one sentence while ignoring the rest.

What needs to be done here

1. Agree on a definition of Punk Punk. I have listed possible definitions below, perhaps we could get a crowner?
2. Re-write Punk Punk to reflect this definition
3. Sort out which subtropes fit the new definition. I think this would be best along the lines of a Projects thread, where we move through one at a time and decide whether they are valid subtropes. All tropes deemed non-subtropes should be renamed to a non-snowclone name.

Summary of possible definitions:

Definition A

- ~StarSword and Wikipedia, post 82

Definition B

- ~Memers, post 63 and 70

Definition C

- ~Another Duck, posts 47 and 61

It seems to me that Definition A includes both B and C.

Edited by naturalironist on Aug 24th 2018 at 12:21:40 PM

A does include both however there are many examples that are called that even by that specific wiki page that are only B or C.

Its a very loose and rather new Genre that we didn't create but many people use. B is really the absolute min requirements IMO.

Edited by Memers on Aug 24th 2018 at 9:27:04 AM

I agree most with definition A, because of the simple fact that -punk isn't a single genre (or mashup of specific genres as in post 73), it's a family of genres, each of which focuses on a different particular fantastical element. Other aspects of the setting are optional (the exception being Cyberpunk, for which non-dystopian versions are generally classed as Post-Cyberpunk).

For comparison, look at Science Fiction: It comprises stereotypical Space Opera (e.g. Star Trek), as well as "social science fiction" that has little to no technological fantasticness (Person of Interest, The Handmaid's Tale).

Once we decide on that, we also need to decide which of our -punk tropes/genres actually count.

Edited by StarSword on Aug 25th 2018 at 7:24:56 AM

This is generally my feeling as well.

Not seeing much overlap between A and B/C.

What if we take the known punk tropes and sort them into the definitions the are closest to. This would already give us an idea of what tropes we are about to discard before we even decide what definition we are going with.

Ok if we do that for Cyberpunk and Steampunk, since those are the basis for all of these. But this thread has gotten repeatedly derailed by people arguing about whether specific subtropes even exist or not, and I think the task would be easier with specific criteria about what counts.

Honestly I just think we need to split it between exterior genres and TV Tropes originals and tighten up a few specific pages.

Honestly I don't think it's really very hard to decide if a particular "punk" page has enough works to legitimately be a "genre". That, IMHO, is what we should most be concerned with once we get to the subtropes stage.

For example (trying to address a concern without derailing the thread in the exact way the concern was concerned about ), Atom Punk versus Desert Punk. Atom Punk is maybe a genre, albeit I don't personally know any works that would fit it besides Fallout, but it focuses on extrapolation of nuclear technology far beyond what happened in real life (e.g. I've read about concept nuclear-powered passenger cars similar Fallout's Corvega, they just didn't happen because do you want to frakking give your customer radiation poisoning?). Whereas Desert Punk is just a Non-Indicative Title; it's about desert planets, not a genre.

Edited by StarSword on Aug 30th 2018 at 9:19:03 AM

When I read Desert Punk I thought about settings like in the Mad Max franchise but apparently that's something else.

That trope is written about Space Westerns, literal Sci-fi Western set on an alien planet and such.

IMO it is quite a bit more specific and restrictive than a usual punk trope needs to be. Mad Max is appropriate for a real Desert Punk trope.

Edited by Memers on Aug 31st 2018 at 12:01:08 PM

Definition A, since Cyberpunk was the original Punk Punk.

Except for the definition has expanded greatly in Cyberpunk Derivatives, which is what these Futuristic, Retrofuturistic and Fantastic genres are.

Edited by Memers on Sep 4th 2018 at 5:30:11 AM

Are there specific cyberpunk derivatives that wouldn't fit definition A?