Writing an under-aged and promiscuous character

So my character is a victim of abuse owing to growing up in a brothel. She's rescued when she's in her early teens but has already experienced sex. This coupled with some other factors results in her openly flirting with and generally being "creepy" around adults. She's even attracted to her guardian/rescuer.

Now I wanted to write the character as a Fille Fatale with an emphasis on the Fatale. Part of the reason she plays up her promiscuity is to see who falls for the bait and then severely punishing them for it (Think Hayley from the film Hard Candy meets Eli from Let The Right One In). She's young in mind/body but not a helpless human (lets ignore that aspect for now).

I have a couple of questions:

1. How would those of similar age react to her? How would an average young boy, say anywhere from 13-16 years of age see her? How would other girls see her, regardless of orientation?

2. What kind of treatment/medical care would you provide to such a girl? To cure her of this kind of behavior? Can it even be done?

3. What if she doesn't want to be fixed and think she's doing some kind of community service by hunting down abusers?

4. What's the moral standard on intimate relationships between minors/under-aged? If the parents find out/get involved, what's the realistic response? Assuming the boy's family is fairly liberal and living in a first world nation.

5. In legal terms (USA); this person can be tried as an adult depending on the crime, right?

edited 9th Mar '17 4:56:59 AM by SmokingBun

1: If we're talking averages, then wouldn't the average teen boy want to screw her and the average teen girl consider her a slut? I suppose something of a reverse could be true, with boys calling her slutty cause they ain't getting any whilst the girls rightly assume she has Serious Issues

2 & 3: If she thinks she's doing a service exposing hebephiles and ephebophiles, then convincing her she doesn't need to would be necessary. She might need some kind of relationship therapy to understand normal romantic behavior, but that might be reserved for when she's older.

4: I don't think it is anything more complicated then "Don't get that girl pregnant!" I was an eight-year-old once, so I can truthfully say people underestimate how sexual younger ages can be. Plus, a main motivation for younger minors is curiosity or imitation of adults. So it may not be preferred, but nobody is gonna disown their twelve year old for being a parent (which is weird because they love bitching out teen parents).

5: I've never really studied US law, but unless she's doing some creepyass shit I imagine she would be tried as an ordinary juvenile. Just because she's sexually experienced an adult she is not. I suppose the line becomes more blurred if she is a mom, but only if she embraces the role- Even then, that's more likely to lessen her punishment given the whole sympathy angle.

Re.1: Average boy, he'd want to sleep with her, average girl, she'd shrug and not care. That said, "average" is a word you should laugh at when you look at human–human interactions. The boys' reactions would range from condemning her to trying to molest her—her promiscuity making them think that she always wants it so they needn't ask—with a lot of stuff in-between, including just wanting to sleep with her, shrugging and not caring, bullying her, ogling her, talking to her to find out why she is doing it, talking to her to stop her from doing it, and so on, and so on. Likewise, the girls' reaction will vary greatly and any possible reaction you can think of is something that could possibly happen.

Re.2: That's ... a hard question to answer. Humans in their early teen years are already sexual creatures, and some of them enter that classification before even hitting double-digit age. As such, if she actually is happy having sex then personally I couldn't care less about it. I might or might not be feeling uncomfortable about certain aspects of it, but all in all what matters is her feelings about it and though I could try to provide some kind of education on the topic (which would presumably not be very needed, or at least not needed in some aspects), I cannot arbitrarily decide that this is something that requires treatment. True, the age of consent is an issue, but only because of the whole "statutory rape" nonsense, and I couldn't really get on her case for that without being a hypocrite so I won't. That said, the one thing that should get treatment of some kind is the whole "predator hunting" thing, but with this being not something you can stop with a treatment but rather something that has to be removed via deprogramming the person, and with the girl being in her teenage years which means an emotional mess, and with her later and mayhap even early childhood also being a mess which makes it even more of an emotional tangle, well ... if I happened to be the person who had to do it, which means I'd have to be a guardian or even a surrogate mother to the kid, it would probably involve a lot of tears on both sides but done it can be, one would just have to know what they are doing and be consistent and firm about it and keep their guard up at all times.

Re.3: This is why you don't "treat" it but instead have to "deprogram" the person who is doing this. We are all Pavlov's dogs, in a way, even if some people wish for it not to be true, and that means that if certain behaviours and thoughts are beaten into someone from a young age it has to then be beaten out ... maybe not literally, but that's the gist of it, what is trained to become intrinsic is not something that is simply lost or can be treated but instead one has to be trained to lose that part of their nature. This is why some delinquent kids who are seen as still having a chance to grow up to be better people and whose parents abandoned them go to surrogate families the parents of which have experience with doing just that.

Re.4: Basically anything could happen, but for anything that isn't acceptance they'd need biases of some kind, and some of them might be condescending even if they do accept her as they might think her pitiful and incapable of taking care of anyone, be it herself, the kid, or any other person. If she happened to be forced into pregnancy (you know, child prostitution and stuff) then unless the family has some really weird biases which would be quite apparent they certainly will try to accept her. As for her parents, if they even appear in the story, that depends on why exactly she actually spent her childhood in a brothel. And as for anyone who serves as the kid's guardian, I would presume their reaction to be some kind of acceptance with likely some pity thrown in. Now, if this instead is something that happened purely because of her decision, then I can see even some liberal people rejecting her because that's quite a stupid decision for anyone in her situation; others, on the other hand, will accept her but with a lot more pity and treating her like a "poor, sad child" rather than an actual teenager.

Re.5: Not really. You see, there are those two lovely things called "age of consent" and "statutory rape". They aren't actually lovely, by the way, they are stupid things that are used to deal with things that could otherwise be problematic to deal with, which in itself wouldn't be bad but the way they are used means that when they appear a lot of other stuff just disappears into thin air. As such, for as long as she is below the age of consent, which in the United States of America she most likely will be, any situation which sex is a part of with her being there will default to her being raped because the law states that she is incapable of being willing (head, meet palm). If she does anything that is completely unrelated to sex in any way then she will instead be tried as a juvenile, unless she is emancipated which the second question (suggesting that there are people who have some kind of ability to try to decide for her in certain matters, meaning guardians or even surrogate parents) makes unlikely.

I am not an expert on American law, by the way, but the whole "age of consent" nonsense is very well known.

Well well, sounds like you need the voice of the devil here. First of all, let me say that I really love the Fille Fatale concept, even having such a character myself (though in my case said character is also a vampire, luring men in Lolita-style and then feeding on them). Second, I think it would be awesome if such a character were played up as a Byronic Hero, whose "flaws" are only due to a twisted worldview.

I love the idea of her not thinking she should be "cured" and think she's doing the world a favor by disposing of pedophiles and the like. If she's open about her behavior, some of the kids might think it mildly creepy at best, but once said other teens casually tell their parents about her, said parents would likely have a serious talk with the school who would have a serious talk with your character. That could be an interesting point of contention with the character.

But yes, I agree that most of the opposition would come from adults rather than anyone who's a peer or younger. On the standpoint of legality, I am pretty sure that a teen cannot be tried as an adult under any circumstance, but I may be wrong, especially if there's murder involved.

I also have to wonder, and not to be rude to you personally or anything or suggest such about the story, what attitude your character might have towards child pornography. Would she take on a less apprehensive attitude towards it as a result of her upbringing, even if she never is a part of it herself? Again, I'm not suggesting this topic should be explored in your story - I'm just genuinely curious.

@Kkutwar

1. I think you nailed it. Certain boys I'm sure would be giddy and excited to know a girl who's willing to do anything and everything they would have seen in porn. Though on the flip-side I would say they could also be nervous wrecks and chicken out (at the cost of being shunned by their friends). Girls (depending on background I suppose) would mostly consider her a slut; with the occasional thinking she has all the boys wrapped around her finger

2 & 3. Right, though in her case it would probably be better to tackle her adult behavior head on like she was an adult and tell her that she's basically being made a victim. On top of that; explain the danger she's putting herself in and essentially walking into lion dens repeatedly.

4. This one seems odd to me since even in America, teen pregnancy is vilified to a huge extent (with Reality Shows basically making fun of the dysfunctional situation). But ya, kids do fool around a lot and imitate everything adults do. That said the best we can hope for is that they have proper sex education and don't end up getting pregnant. A 12 year old boy getting a girl pregnant would be a huge scandal though. It could even be seen as child abuse and the kids would definitely be taken away.

5. Good point. Even with the "asking for it" mentality some have, the girl would be given the benefit of the doubt.

@Elementalist

I was waiting for your always insightful response : D

1. Yeah average is the vaguest of words. An average boy living in a rich gated community in the US would be different from a boy living in a modest apartment in Boston who in turn would be vastly different to a boy living in the slums of Calcutta. That said; I was looking for a general idea assuming everyone here is of middle-class first world nation persuasion. A rough estimate so to speak. But I like the examples of all the varied reactions and will keep them in mind.

2. I suppose at a certain point if a person is fully aware of their actions and fully embrace the consequences, we don't have a right to stop unless it's something very extreme (say harming others). If they say, "you could get pregnant" and she replies, "yeah I know, I'm prepared" there's not much else you can say. As I mentioned above, getting her educated would be the best thing to do. Though I would still call her behavior self-destructive; like we have AA meetings for alcoholics since we know how damaging it can be. But then, people can choose not to go.

Coming to the "predator hunting" aspect; how DO you deprogram someone like that? Ideas?

3. Nothing more to add. Noted!

4. Well the character is an orphan so no parents. Acceptance through pity from her guardian is basically what I'm going for. Think of the guardian as like the dad from Dexter who begrudgingly accepts his son's quirks (i.e. serial killer) and guides him to use those tendencies in positive way (hunt other serial killers).

It's interesting to note that if my character did get herself pregnant, the boy's parents would more often than not be on her side and view her as the victim so to say. Just sex and intimacy though; well that's not something you discuss with your parents naturally. I was really of the impression that she would be shunned and reviled. But that may come from my own biases since I come from a somewhat conservative society (India)

5. Noted. Though age of consent is really sort of a template many nations decided on i.e. by this age a person should be capable of offering consent and that's what we'll hold regardless of any anomalies.

@ladytanuki

My character could very well be a Byronic Hero then; someone who plays by their own beliefs and works on a personal moral code regardless of what society thinks. I like that.

You're pretty close to what I was writing the characters as; the kids are intrigued and even fascinated by this girl who seemingly has no shame or anxieties about her own sexuality, a complex thing they themselves are discovering. But naturally, the parents would throw their arms up in horror.

I'm imagining a bunch of nerdy kids talking her somewhere secluded and asking to be shown the "naughty lady parts" and basically being overwhelmed when someone is so open about this since all the adults they have spoken to would have been coy or avoid the subject all together (you''ll know when you're older). Although the story does take place in the age of the internet, I imagine seeing and possibly experiencing sexual stuff in person wouldn't compare to porn.

Coming to child pornography; she would hate it. The reason being that my character knows enough about the world to realize that the children in the images and videos were obviously coerced or otherwise forced. And if they are like "her" i.e. sexually aware and promiscuous then that means they have been abused like her and she would basically be bearing for blood at this stage.

That's what makes her so dangerous. She's not acting out or delusional or copying stuff she sees or was told to do; she understands what happened to her was wrong and is lashing out in every way she can. That said, she does treat it like a tool much like anything else and even puts up pictures of herself to bait predators to come out and fall into her trap.

Now you might say, "well why does she act sexual then?" Because she can't turn it off and enjoys the attention. She desires love and sex but it has to be on her terms, she wants to be in control. In fact that's the theme of my story, the importance of control and being able to determine your own fate rather than the whims and fancies of someone else.

Coming back to the nerdy boys I mentioned; she lets them peek at her private parts and even touch but doesn't go further. The difference is that she invites them in, has them look and bids them farewell rather than the boys forcing themselves upon her.

edited 10th Mar '17 3:31:52 PM by SmokingBun

Hmm, deprogramming someone and the how-to of it, well ... it is an interesting topic and an interesting question, that is for sure, and yet at the same time it is something so basic.

To start with, it is all laid on the foundation of us all being Pavlov's dogs and it actually being used to mold us in our journey throughout life. Basically, "programming" and "deprogramming" someone are things that parents do to their children in the process of raising them. They aren't the only people who do it, of course, some people who do get appropriate education and training do it too, and on the other hand there are parents who are incapable of doing this to their children; there is an important piece of information to be found in the fact that they are the main example, though: it is our bond to the people doing this to us, the fact that we are close enough to them, the fact that no matter what our armour is they are open to it. This is part of the reason why people who suffered through sufficiently strong trauma that did alter their behaviour can be very hard to help, as they need to lose those changes, to be "deprogrammed", and yet their guard is so high that it takes a lot of effort to get close enough to them to be able to do it at all, let alone in anything approaching an efficient manner.

Do think about it for a bit. When you interact with people you are very close to, people whom you like, people whom you trust, people whom you love (I'm talking about the concept of the four loves here, not just romantic love), people with whom you spend time just to be with them even if you aren't doing anything and there's no real point to it because you simply want to be close, that is when your behaviour can be changed and the change can be done by those very people. They can instill new behaviours into you ("programming") or help you remove those you don't like, don't need. or otherwise shouldn't have ("deprogramming"), and the reason they can do it is because you genuinely care and have some reason to try to change, an attempt that with time becomes the change. This is also part of why it is recommended to people who went through traumatic things spend time with people they are close to; certainly, the support and the ability to talk about it to someone does help too, but another thing is that with those close people being aware of the problem they can counteract the changes coming from the trauma as they appear rather than later when all of it is deeply entrenched and one needs to get through an armour to get to them.

In a way, you could say that "deprogramming" (as is "programming") someone, when done with good intentions, is always "raising" them, as a mother or a father would raise their child, for it is always nurturing, it is always to some degree protecting, it is giving them warmth, and motivating them be that motivation positive or negative or both. It isn't always easy, of course: there are times when negative traits have to (or don't have but still are attempted to) be eliminated but the person it is being done to is a mess for one reason or another and lashes out in one way or another. This is easy to observe in teenagers, who often enough still care about their parents and still are close but also have this thing where they want to gain distance and thus can lash out at people just for being close and just for the sake of doing it, but it is present in other people as well, such as victims of trauma or people with certain character traits or self-destructive behaviours. Mistakes during the process can, too, lead to a retaliatory attack from the subject or it, as though they may allow someone to get close and raise their armour for them, making certain decisions may lead to them feeling betrayed, losing their trust either momentarily or permanently, and their armour hitting us on the head before we manage to back out (so to say). For that reason, and because certain people do make attacks periodically because they simply do not trust the notion that people do want to be close to them genuinely, one needs to keep their guard up but not appear that way as being seen as someone who keeps their guard up will make the subject less likely to actually trust them. Additionally, they need to be firm and consistent because you can't really deprogram someone well if you stop halfway through for no reason; if you think you are being too harsh, the proper thing to do isn't to stop for a moment but to find a way to take an approach to motivate them that is less harsh but will work as well.

Going with that to the question of the character getting deprogrammed, well ... you'd need someone who can get close to her, as close as a parent would to a child, and who would actually care about her. Then you would need that person to find a way to motivate the girl in a way that would give her a reason to even consider changing her behaviour, and that is without doing something that would make her back off again. Whatever you do, and whoever would happen to do it, they'd have to get close enough to cry for each other's suffering the way actual loving family does, and then the whole process would start to look the way it does with some family where the teenage daughters get some really bad habit and her parents spend a lot of time getting her out of it, with them all crying out a river of tears along the way. So ... yeah, helping a delinquent teenage daughter become a better person, it's going to be a whole lot like that only likely worse because she has the (not entirely unjustified) idea that what she is doing is right and the whole thing is stemming from trauma which means that even if it is forgotten about there is an additional layer of armour for them to get through.

Now, getting onto other things.

As for the being shunned and reviled thing, I have no doubt that some people are going to do that. The thing is, though, that there are going to be three kinds of people there: the "not our business" group, the "depends on the reason" group, and the "she is a slut because she was pregnant at all" group. The last one will be people who are generally close-minded and bigoted, or otherwise were raised believing that having sex before a certain age or out of marriage for any reason is worse than death and ... well, I will not say that they are bigoted, and at one time (pre–double-digits) I too had a weird view of anything sexual, but those people aren't all that common unless they live in societies where everyone is like that. The second group is going to approach the whole thing neutrally and then base their opinions on what they hear, so the very fact that the parents of the boy who is the father support her might give them the impression that the whole thing, though not necessarily "good", wasn't actually "bad" and as such there is no reason for being negative towards her; it could, obviously, also go the other way for those people in this group who heard something bad about her with some quasi-logical reasoning from a member of the last group and didn't discard it outright, and certainly those who would hear of her sleeping around or worse yet be hit on by her could too think negatively of her ... unless they knew the reason, in which case at least some of them would change it into neutrality again, whilst some would go for pity or simply being uncomfortable in her presence. And the first group really wouldn't care—well, they would have opinions, certainly, but those would be saved for themselves—unless she herself did something that would make having opinion about her important for some reason, meaning either her getting close enough to them that she wouldn't be just a stranger or her doing something quite audacious, be it a good something or a bad something.

As the majority of people in a society like the American one, an overwhelming majority really, are people from the first and second group (mostly the second, though there are still more people in the first group than in the third), that means that the general populace would not, by default, ostracise her, and if they ended up doing it it would be related to something she does once she actually starts living amongst them. Would there be exceptions? Sure, and feel free to have as many of those as you have, just remember that the third group tends to be all-around intolerant.

The "Just sex and intimacy though; well that's not something you discuss with your parents naturally." bit, I ... honestly do not know and have to take your word that this is how it goes (I would throw a certain backstory trope there to show the reason, but I feel doing it now would be poor form), but in my (European, mind you, so if someone from USA says it is absolutely different for them they are probably right) experience some guardians don't have any issues with talking about sexual stuff with their wards, and whether they do or not depends on their personality (if they are an open person with no issues regarding their own sexuality they are more likely to be able to do it) and on how they were raised (something that may or may not have caused issues if they weren't raised to see their body itself as a good thing regardless of how it looks or feels, and also creates habits—"programming", yay—and the force of habit is well-known indeed).

Another random note, take reality shows with a bucket (the largest you can find) of salt. People like something to happen when watching their entertainment whilst lying on a couch like a sack of potatoes, and thus with no gratuitous explosions and people being kicked around and falling to their deaths reality shows had to settle for drama instead. As such, the topic is very often picked to be in some way controversial, the in-program audience is at least partially picked for their ability to get loud and tendency to get purple (like Vernon from "Harry Potter"), and sometimes even the participants are hand-picked specifically for that, not to mention the many individual aspects of anything that happens to be shown that can and often are presented in a too negative light based on nothing more than speculation without any counter-weight and without the possibility of defence. A good example of what I mean is the "Jerry Springer" show, if you happened to see even one episode of it: the people they get for the program are so out of the norm for what they are supposed to represent that they end up not really representing anything but their own insecurities and anger. Oh, sure, some people are like that, otherwise they wouldn't have found them for whatever show they are doing, but they absolutely do not represent the general populace in any way.

edited 12th Mar '17 2:14:42 PM by Kazeto

Not sure if the responses given to #1 are correct. I was not a normal boy but I am rather dubious that "I want to bang her" would be the most common response; this sounds to me like thinking in stereotypes and the rates of sexual assault committed by minors would have to be much higher than what it actually is.

Other teenager's reactions to her are going to be all over the place, especially with an age range like "13-16". Some boys are going to want to bang her. Some are going to be terrified of her. Some are going to be curious but confused. Some are going to wonder what the fuss is about. Some girls are going to think she's a slut, some will be jealous or wish they could be like her. Some will be curious but confused. Some will not care.

Noted, SeptimusHeap, but I think you are forgetting that there is a line, a somewhat thick line all things considered, between wanting to do something and actually doing it.

A boy wanting to sleep with her might mean that he will try to do something, be that trying to actually do it regardless of her wishes, or be it bluntly asking her and probably getting rejected, or he might instead not actually do anything that could ever lead to an intercourse with her. And desire or not, a great many boys and girls that age aren't comfortable enough with the other sex yet for such a desire directed at someone they don't really know to result in anything but maybe them thinking about her when they masturbate or mentioning to other boys that she is hot or something of that ilk. And the desire itself does not mean they won't have other thoughts too, maybe at the same time or maybe later.

For one protesting about how we are thinking in stereotypes you seem to have forgotten about that particular detail and equated a boy having sexual thoughts about a girl to him doing something to her, which in itself is a stereotype. I don't want to sound mean but ... well, yeah, you did that and it's kind of bad.

edited 13th Mar '17 11:42:59 AM by Kazeto

To be fair, Smoking Bun did explicitly ask for averages and a lot of media do treat teenage boys as horny pervs. I fully agree that people can't really be generalized, and that just about any outcome is possible based on an individual's personality.

I would like to note to Kazeto that not only are they misconstruing the intent of statutory rape and age of consent laws, but misrepresenting the nature of American and European law on the subject.

The idea is not that a teenager cannot be *willing* to engage sexually with an adult, but that their status as a minor prevents them from legally consenting to a number of things, most non-sexual in nature, and that knowingly bedding someone who cannot legally consent is tantamount to the violation of consent, and thus sexual assault in some degree. The potential problems associated with, for instance, two teenagers close in age yet divided by this seemingly arbitrary line are self-evident; to this end, most states here have what are known informally as "Romeo & Juliet laws," in which below the absolute age of consent (between 16 and 18) there is a window of several years, usually five, within which a sexual relationship between two minors or a minor and a young adult is permissible, with a floor below which the minor falls into a protected class, usually coinciding with the beginning of adolescence, below which... well, if it's two kids, whatever, but an older teen or adult would be in deep trouble for obvious reasons. (The Australian system is similar.) The main bone of contention here is that these are inconsistent between states and in relation to sexual orientation (because homophobia), but there are many egregiously stupid things about the federal system at large and let's not get mired there.

Anyway.

In Europe, the absolute age of consent is generally a bit lower than in the US, but special protections still exist regarding sexual activity with persons under the age of majority. For instance, the age of consent in Germany is 15, but persons under the age of 18 cannot legally perform in pornography, and possession of "youth pornography," while not quite so serious as child pornography, is highly illegal. Likewise, while it's no big legal deal if two young teens have sex—although it's potentially an issue for other reasons; in some ways kids are smart, in others terribly stupid—an adult sleeping with someone below the age of consent is a pretty serious offence, just as in the States.

Interestingly, there are many places where the stated age of sexual consent is not the same as the de facto age, sometimes to extremes: The Japanese federal age of sexual consent is 13, but complex prefecture laws relating to the "corruption of a minor" and other matters of parental and individual legal consent make the age of majority closer to 18 in most places, with intercourse with a young teenager being quite illegal in one form or another throughout most of the country, with few exceptions.

Sexual mores fascinate me, and I am willing to accept that not everybody is going to see eye-to-eye on best practices, but I prefer that people keep their facts straight when making particularly incendiary arguments. I appreciate that Kazeto admitted ignorance on the precise nature of American legal customs, but I felt the insinuations a bit misleading and inadvertently presumptuous.

I do agree that I did not note the whole "Romeo & Juliet laws" thing but considering that the question had the implication of it being applied to her sleeping with an adult (which means those laws wouldn't apply in any way whatsoever), I'm not sure how that counts as misconstruing; I did not present the full image, sure, but the bits skipped seemed to be of no concern to the question. Furthermore, since we are talking strictly about American law here, "misrepresenting the nature of American and European law on the subject" sounds less like something I actually did and more of an arrogant accusation. I do get the American law bit, as I did already note that I am not an expert on American law, but adding European law to that one when I wrote not a single word about it is genuinely being an arse. Since you wrote that you "felt the insinuations a bit misleading and inadvertently presumptuous", I ask that you too pay attention to what you write for your insinuation that I misrepresented the nature of European law when I wrote nothing about it whatsoever is ... well, I'll stop at "neither good nor nice".

I do admit that the wording of the whole thing could have been better, for I find the whole "age of consent" thing when applied to sexuality a bit ... badly done, which likely did colour my word choice. I do give you that one, I shouldn't be sarcastic towards law when writing about it for that results in bad wording.

That said, since we started talking about law less specifically in USA and more in general, I will note to the general audience that there isn't a single European law, for though the European Union does have its own laws and the member countries are supposed to ... well, not ignore them, they aren't actually forced to adopt all of them. Not to mention that not every European country is a member country of EU. The whole "Romeo & Julied laws" thing does, too, vary from country to country, though I am unsure if so do laws on pornography staring people who are over the age of consent but not actually adults as I've yet to find a country (I admit to not searching very rigorously, though) where it wouldn't just be "nope, not legal".

A little correction: Germany's age of consent is actually 14. And most US states don't have "closed in age exemptions" written in the law as far as I know; they are more commonly a matter of prosecutorial discretion.

For the record, in most places I know of child pornography laws are more restrictive than sex laws. In Switzerland a 16 year old is old enough to consent to intercourse with an adult (some special provisions for teachers aside), but not to be the subject of porn.

I recognise that each country in the EU and outside of it has its own laws on the matter, but insofar as I am aware they tend to be more akin to those in Germany, the UK and (as Septimus notes) Switzerland overall than those of the USA.

My bringing up European law regarding age of consent had to do with you mentioning that you were European (you didn't specify from where) and implying that things were somehow better or radically different in your country of origin. I took umbrage with the implication, although in retrospect I was probably reading too much into it and I must apologise.

Ahhh, yes, prosecutorial discretion, in which some lawyer in a podunk town can charge a black teenager for sleeping with his white girlfriend a mere two years his junior as an adult offender and have him tossed in jail as a sex offender when the poor kid would be scot-free in the next state over. And yes, this has happened. Not infrequently.

Can you tell that I'm bitter about our legal system? :D

@Kazeto

About deprogramming; I think I understand it better now. It's something you see with soldiers returning from war. Even without PTSD, there are somethings that have become so ingrained in their behavior and how they react that's it's very difficult to change it back to how it was. The line "Bed's too soft right?" from CAPTAIN AMERICA: WINTER SOLDIER comes to mind.

The obstacle my character faces is that the one person who genuinely loved her is dead (an accident but my character feels personally responsible) and every new person she meets is viewed with suspicion and the assumption that they want something for her. So she may appear to be cosy and casual but it's all an act. Getting her to drop that guard is the real challenge.

A new character is introduced who begins with his own motives but takes a genuine interest in my protag's well being and even puts himself at risk to prevent any further harm from coming to her (despite her own self-destructive behavior). He feels degree of pity for her and tries to guide her right. Of course she falls in love with him (genuinely) and that just complicates matters.

Regarding the reaction to teenage pregnancy and such. Well my story does actually take place in India but even then in a fairly liberal part of the country and a decade in the future. So as you said, the first & second group's are far more likely to be common than the third. The third group would make for some drama but then I'm not writing a soap opera.

Western Europe I know for a fact is very sexually liberal but America I'm sure is a bit more on the conservative sides when it comes to "Talking about sex" since "having the birds & bees" talk is a common topic of jokes and much of the humor comes from how awkward and uncomfortable it is for american parents to talk to their kids about sex.

But again, yes it would vary. Orthodox Christians would be a big no no but parents who don't mind watching saucy scenes in a movie with their kids would be okay with it. As far as reality shows are concerned, I am aware they are mostly scripted with small wiggle room in case something wild happens.

Also, lol JERRY SPRINGER. Yeah, I am aware of that infamous show and all the jokes related to it. Makes sense they would call the conservative crazies to appear on that show.

@Septimus Heap

It depends on the society and your environment I imagine. In a country like India stuff like sexual assault and other crimes of the manner get more common the further you go from the major metro's. From both educational and economical perspectives, Indians can be so wildly different when it comes to matters of sex that it's astounding.

At our core we are sexually reserved/frustrated, then with class divides across stuff like caste and creed you have situations where some guys in the boonies think they are entitled or even expected to harass women since that's "just how things are" or with the justification that their victims are of a 'lower caste.' There was even a documentary about how kids around the world deal with this stuff and there was an Indian kid in a small town who spoke of peer pressure and his friends expected him to join in on catcalling and such.

All that said, even an American kid growing up in uber liberal San Francisco and having a healthy habit of regular masturbation along with a girlfriend would still have a degree of fascination with how women work. He or even she maybe shy and never say or do anything scandalous but thanks to raging hormones there is always a desire to say peek under a skirt and see what's going on down there (something which at times carries on to adult hood; creep or no)

Now in India, even if the boys are given a degree of leeway, the girls are expected to be pure and proper. Now my when my character shows up and offers to answer any questions the boys have in gross detail, well their curiosity is peaked and they 'want to know more'. The other girls would be surprised and some may even join in since something being taboo only increases your desire to indulge in it.

Finally yes, some kids would straight up chicken out, either because of the fear of getting caught or some other reason. Mind you I'm talking about under 16's here mostly.

@Madrugda

You basically covered it, same as above.

@Kazeto

Agreed, the desire would be there but actually taking part in that stuff would be very difficult for them and some might even be grossed out. Many would get cold feet at the prospect of just a kiss let alone anything else. They may think or fantasize but the one who actually wants to and is ready to engage in sexual activity would be very rare. Touching or groping; maybe.

@Kkutwar

Well I was trying to figure out what sort of behavior would make you the "outlier" just like my character is with her above mentioned promiscuity.

@JHM

Yeah I agree Kazeto was a bit harsh here. Consent laws are to protect minors from abuse from adults more so than anything else. That's why I really like the concept of Romeo/Juliet laws and something we need in India.

I have no idea what you mean with the last note (if you mean that I was harsh in my last reply then it is a moot point due to the fact that as far as we know those accidental hatchets that were flying between me and JHM are already buried), so I will expand on the whole thing with the age of consent, not specifically with USA in mind but in general, and I will now do it without any unnecessary sarcasm.

The thing is, age of consent is, by itself, not bad. Many people below the age of consent—as well as quite some a bit about it, really—have neither the maturity nor enough knowledge to actually make an informed choice about sexual things. Age of consent is something that is supposed to make them safe(r) by providing an incentive for older people not to try to have sex with them, making their already dubious due to the possibility of them simply being deceived and agreeing to something they wouldn't normally have agreed to consent not something that counts as consent outside of specific circumstances; that is the spirit of the law, and the spirit of the law is good. The law, however, is by itself inflexible due to three factors: the reliance on a fixed number rather than some level of maturity that could be treated as a baseline, the fact that the Romeo and Juliet laws aren't actually laws everywhere and thus courts in some places might choose not to use them simply because they have a bias against the person who slept with the person below the age of consent, and the fact that when dealing with this the people enforcing the law reject the notion that people below the age of consent might actually be willing. This makes the age of consent thing, very good in its spirit, the intended purpose, to be grossly misused so often that it sometimes becomes an outright abomination that is closer to injustice than justice.

There is at least one country the law codex of which defines rape as a sexual activity at least one participant of which is not "willing". Let that sink in for a moment and then we shall go further. You see, in order to become "willing" (quotes used to indicate usage of the word as defined in that country's law rather than simply the word itself), one has to give their consent in a clear and understandable way, consent which can be taken back at any point by doing so in (the same as before) a clear and understandable way. Those two are fine, if maybe appearing unnecessarily complicated due to defining things that you'd think are common sense, but that's law codices for you, they sometimes have to do that to avoid loopholes. Then comes the weird and unpleasant bit, though—as people below the age of consent cannot give a legally valid consent, they are incapable of being "willing", which in itself is not bad when it is applied with all the definitions and in the context of the law, but often enough people, even those who should by all means know better, take "incapable of being «willing»", a phrase that means one specific thing, to mean "incapable of being willing", a phrase that means a completely different thing (namely, that the person could not have possibly not been forced into it).

This (the above bit) is a huge problem because, while it is inflexible, the concept of "statutory rape" is not by itself a bad thing as it only serves as an attachment to the age of consent laws the spirit of which is good but the mishandling of the core of what statutory rape is makes people equal it to de facto rape. And in some places of the world rape is treated as so special a thing that the very fact that it is treated as a rape regardless of the truth behind it can make all (or nearly all) the people involved in handling the case put it on the top of the chain and refuse to look at anything that does not pertain directly to it. If you think that this isn't a big deal then you aren't necessarily mistaken for in some cases it isn't, but there were cases where people got sentences for sleeping someone who deceived them about their age and who both looked and behaved as if they were above the age of consent which means that the situation was closer to the reverse (namely, the kid's consent was fairly obvious even if not legally valid, whilst their consent was questionable in nature because of the other person's deceit), the whole thing you might have a reference to with the word "jailbait". Likewise, I am not certain if that was the case in other parts of the world but in the country I currently reside in there were actually cases of adult people being forced, by someone who was below the age of consent, into acts that were sexual in nature either with use of physical force or with blackmail, and those adult people were then in trouble with the law because the courts ignored the fact that they were raped (sex caused by blackmail counts as rape too, by the way) in favour of condemning them for being bad people who slept with minors, with a silent implication that obviously they raped those minors because obviously. Consider those things for a moment.

Of course, the Romeo and Juliet laws do help to at least a certain degree (imagine the mess if you had a girl and a boy one year below the age of consent who were caught in the act if those laws didn't exist), but the fact that they aren't actual laws everywhere is a problem. Not only because of the fact that the above example will be a mess in the countries without it, but also as the proof that the people making the laws still see "«willing»" as "willing" and minors as incapable of having certain wants and/or needs, meaning that when they look at those laws those people do not see the spirit but rather ... something, I am not sure what exactly it is that they see due to the fact that my view of this thing is distant enough to make theirs incomprehensible to me in parts but I'm quite certain we can agree that whatever it is it is nothing good. Additionally, whilst the whole "not mature enough" part of the reason for why people below the age of consent cannot really give it is in some cases valid, the lack of actual sexual education could be solved by making people who actually know their job teach about it and as "sexual education" is a part of the school curriculum in some shape in at least some countries this is not a problem that could be dismissed by simply telling the parents to do it because when "sexual education" is taught by people whose words make it seem that they are against the existence of sexuality and the kids' parents were taught by the same sort of people, well ... it once again goes back to the people at the top and their weird approach to it.

The laws by themselves aren't bad, and with their spirit being good one could even say that the laws are good. However, their execution is often enough close enough to atrocious and the efforts to recognise this fact and fix them and/or the related things so non-existent that those laws as they are used simply cannot be called anything even close to good. That is the sad reality of those laws, and alas at least some other laws too; they are twisted so badly that their intended purpose is left unfulfilled and they instead are used as a tool of ... what? Scapegoating? Hate-based discrimination? At that point it's not really "law", is it?

Now getting onto more pleasant things (because laws misused in a way that causes unnecessary misery aren't pleasant at all).

If the story is explicitly placed in India but simply in the future then you might want to somehow either foreshadow or put a lampshade and a comment on the fact that the society has changed in the meantime and is more liberal now. I have never been to India but it kind of is famous for castes and for the fact that a lot of people do genuinely stick to traditions, which means that a simple "it's the future, people have changed" might not be enough because people might still think it doesn't feel like India and be unable to connect your country with the India they know or at least think they know. I'm pretty sure you already know that and were planning on doing the very thing, but oh well, better be redundant than simply forget about something because nobody mentioned it and you were thinking about different things (happened to me on occasions, I admit).

And yes, quite a large part of Western, and also Central and possibly parts of the Eastern, Europe is fairly liberal when it comes to the fact that sexuality is a thing that actually exists and is a part of life. Amusingly enough, violence is instead to many a similar taboo to how sexuality is a taboo for quite some Americans; it's as if they'd traded there and I'm sure there's some stupid joke in this whole thing just waiting to be told. The sexual education still sucks in many places, though, which I will sum up with the words "it's just sad" because its not stellar level boils down to the fact that people acknowledge that sexuality exists but some of them still don't actually talk about it and instead just shame the kids into ... well, trying to pretend it doesn't exist, I guess. For an example, sexual education in the school I was attending was taught (at least the girls' part) by someone who was either a catechist or a nun and she was a downright prude so shaming the girls who didn't automatically accept that "no, they can't do it, because no" was a major component of those lessons; most of my sexual education came from my guardian, as in, the person who made sure I was alive after I moved out of my parents' house, and though she wasn't exactly an outlier she definitely was much more willing to talk about sex than most people are. I do admit that the person teaching might have gone overboard because we actually did have a girl who was pregnant in our class, but even ignoring the exact circumstances there's still a lot wrong with this kind of approach to teaching it.

As for the character's shield of "being casual", for what it's worth I can vouch to it actually being a thing and to the fact that sadly it does work (as in, most people can't see through it). The source of my knowledge ... well, I guess it's fairly obvious who it is, so oh well (I'm better now, though it took a few years of therapy, so oh well again). I'll add that I like what you wrote of the new character and their interaction.

The line from the movie was great, by the way. I don't know if it was because it was genuinely that emotional or if I'm simply more sensitive to stuff of this sort, but I do know that I cried when I hear it (not a lot, but it counts).

edited 16th Mar '17 11:07:05 AM by Kazeto

Oy. Wall of Text, there, sire.

Anyhoo, regarding #4 and #5 we need some numbers involved. I think they may be moot though - rape and sexual assault tend to be covered by laws separate from statutory rape/age of consent. (In fact, if memory serves, violations of the latter almost always entail violations of the former)

Yeah, I like walls of text. I guess I should say "sorry" to those who feel otherwise so ... well, sorry about that. There are paragraphs which do separate the topics, but I guess they are kind of long-ish and unwieldy. It hasn't been a problem before (for as long as the walls of text were on topic), so I'd been presuming I'm not doing anything bad by writing these.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean with the numbers, though. If it's about the examples of people being nonsensically pronounced guilty then they might very well be a very isolated thing and I wouldn't know about that but I do know they did happen and so I noted them. And if the numbers are about how often it is being misused then I think that the numbers aren't too important when it comes to the issue of this kind because what is important is that it happens and could be solved but isn't, rather than how often it does happen; I mean, if something is being twisted to the point where its spirit is lost, by the people who are supposed to uphold it, then even if it is only "occasional" it is still a problem. Though maybe you are talking about something else there, I really am just guessing right now.

PS. Not a "sire". It's not really a problem for me (as in, really genuinely not a problem) and it's probably just something you write to people in general, but it's an excuse to add more words so I am adding it ... because, you know, more words to write, and this post is too short for my liking even now.

PPS. Added "some forum users" in general to the examples of that trope. I'm writing about it because, again, an excuse to add more words.

edited 16th Mar '17 1:49:24 PM by Kazeto

@Kazeto

I actually meant that you were harsh in your first reply in this thread where you described consent laws as being 'silly.' Though I know understand your view a little better. The "incapable of being willing" thing is a good point. I personally know a younger cousin who's mature for his age and even understands the implications of consent and such (his parents in fact have warned him not to get into any intimate business with his GF). Obviously he's perfectly able to consent and so is his GF but in this country, sex between them would be seen as rape since as per law neither should be able to GIVE consent at their i.e. 16 years of age.

Yes and rape is one of those things where people follow emotion rather than reason, all too willing to see the "criminal" hang without more closely examining the situation. It is for this reason that India no longer has juries since the divide in mentality is so stark here.

An adult can definitely be forced, even as a 26 year old I don't feel I am mature and I still possesses a degree of naivety. There is no magic shield that prevents me from falling for someone who lies about their age, gets me in bed and subsequently in jail. This is where you need to study the characters of the people involved. Hell in India, my protagonist would be treated as a helpless child by the courts unless they literally had footage of the various murders and manipulations she has committed.

There was an infamous rape case in Delhi (google Delhi 2012 gang rape) where one of the perpetrators was a minor and let off with a very light sentence which in turn caused a huge outcry since that ... person... was as vile and cruel as the others. That was no child. At least we are getting better in the sex education department. Baby steps.

About the other stuff...

Culture shock does play a role in my story with my protagonist dealing with how local people in her sleepy hill station hideaway perceive her and how she's seen in say Tokyo, Japan (My story is sort of a spy tale). Even then she finds certain similarities or prefers the more conservative Indian view (in Tokyo, she almost gets molested on a train and gets told it's a common occurrence called Chikan). The mentor I mentioned often discusses this kind of stuff with her. Not to say it couldn't happen to her in India.

But yes, there is a discussion on how people's perceptions are changing and how with the internet, foreign immigration, tourism and globalization we are being forced to admit our flaws and change for the better. An important character in my story is a politician running for office with the promise of making India more modern in both thought and action. "Why do we send men to the moon and then simultaneously oppress our girls?"

I think my character would love Europe's openness with regards to sexuality that you mentioned. Even her mentor would agree it's better to learn about love and intimacy that what's the best way to kill a man which many seem 'ok' with.

That line from Winter Soldier is a real favorite of mine and I plan to have it in my story. If you really want to understand what my story is like, it's Metal Gear Solid but explores the in between portions between missions where the characters discuss almost every topic in a very Pulp Fiction-y kind of way. Of course the topic's are relevant to their experiences and what they see everyday.

The "numbers" are the actual ages involved. If statutory rape is a point in the story then it's important to know them.

From what I see of how sexuality usually manifests itself in mainstream media, it's less "love and intimacy" and more "what's the best way to sexualise an woman for money without actually making giving any meaning to love and intimacy".

Or I'm bitter. I'm sure you can and will do much better. The commentary in this thread is very promising already!

@hellomoto

Well I did mention European films; it helps the mentor character is a film buff and kind of a snob when it comes to cinema. Obviously most sexual content is exploitative but then you do have the occasional artsy flick with tasteful love scenes.

Does it count as promiscuity if she's only flirting with these guys so that she can determine which of them are predators? Does she have any intention of consummating any of these encounters?

Well, from what I can tell from the description of the character she does at the very least try to appear promiscuous, and with her experience she quite likely can do it well enough that it does not matter whether she actually is promiscuous or not because the people will see what she wants them to see.

@Strix Obscuro

It's bit of both. With some she flirts just to get a reaction, with some she's actively predatory and there are a fair few towards whom she's genuinely attracted and the only way she knows how to show affection is to get physical. This includes her mentor figure who is immensely creeped out by her behavior

@Kazeto

Well said, some characters even say she could become an excellent actor simply because how easily she can play a variety of 'roles' and pop in & out of them with ease. She was even trained for this kind of stuff.