Misused (Alt names crowner 8/2/2017): Lolicon

I am not sure even rolling it into Black Comedy even works in any way since it as a page is a genre of movies and shows.

That is not a genre, the description is simply wrong. But if we want to make this discussion contingent on a discussion of Black Comedy, sure.

I really don't think it's Black Comedy and by extension I don't think most Western examples fit. With Black Comedy there's a kind of, I dunno, adult or serious edge to it in that it acknowledges and in facts prides itself on joking about something that's actually dangerous, immoral or otherwise controversial.

However, in the jokes you'd see in anime there's really none of that and it's treated more like having a slightly weird fetish. Like a pervert character could walk down the street yelling about how much they love little girls they make him feel so good and other characters would just roll their eyes and go 'Oh you rascal' or something similar. The example for Lolicon I see used most in Western media is probably, whatsit, Herbert? in Family Guy, but I don't think that's a proper example because the joke is that he actually is quite creepy, a sex offender and likely dangerous.

The thing is, anime can and frequently does treat characters we would consider to be no more than children as to be legitimate targets of romance/lust, some of them quite popular. You can't have a show as mainstream as, say, Toradora or Shakugan no Shana and then turn around and seriously condemn pedophilia. That's not to say that no anime or visual novels do it but they usually don't joke about it in those cases because lolicon jokes really undermine the issue.

I'm inclined to agree that western examples are not analogous to the eastern/Japanese usage. It's two different cultural mindsets. There are two different views on youth, sexuality, and especially the sexualization of youth. Without repeating what Arha said, it's hard for a western example of pedophilia/"little kid fetish" to be played comically, or even lightly. Folding it into Black Comedy wouldn't work easily because western media doesn't want to go there, the concept isn't equal.

edited 19th Jan '17 4:07:20 PM by pokedude10

Attached a crowner with three options. Also added the Black Comedy option because the arguments here nonwithstanding, most examples are not written differently.

What about an option for a rename of the actual trope on the page? Which isn't exclusive with the other ones. It is a possible subtrope to Black Comedy if it is actually treated as Black Comedy, most arnt.

That would leave the question of what lolicon and shotacon should be open, which is kind of the key question.

You are also free to add new options.

Well, we seem to be trending towards a rename. So, what are we going with? Silly Pedophile? Harmless Pedophile? These names seem kind of, um, questionable to me but I'm not sure what would be better.

And that, really, is the principal issue with a separate trope. We'd be courting a lot of controversy that way.

Comedic Lolicon would be best, it points to the Japanese aspect of the trope pretty well.

Do we still have the old examples list? I can think of decent amount, but might not be enough to save.

Pretty sure that we can't restore the example list. The Naughty Tentacles example list gave us part of the second google incident, a list of examples here - paired with some of the names proposed would give us a third incident.

This. Plus those two names (especially Harmless) are just asking for a a repeat of the "All Pedophiles Are Child Molesters" debacle and yes, would likely spark a third Google Incident, and spell the end of tvtropes.

edited 1st Feb '17 12:55:28 AM by Theatre_Maven_3695

I just want so say that Black Comedy is comedy using the misfortune of someone and/or tragic events. For example, a comedy about the Holocaust (and they do exist). That’s Black Comedy guys. And can sound rude or shocking, but actually when used correctly not only can be very funny and respectful in some way but also can present an interesting message.

South Park, as funny as it is, is more a case of Cringe Comedy as it does tries to shock the public. Same with Family Guy (not my favorite show so I will reframe from judging it) or Beavis and Butthead.

The only way Lolicon (as I understand it) could be considered Black Comedy is in cases of Black Comedy Rape (which I don’t know if they exist). The Lolicon in the Japanese use (I do agree is a case of Values Dissonance) is amazingly more like Light Comedy the cultural equivalent in the West would be something in the line of Abhorrent Admirer maybe? It use in western comedy I guess is always Cringe Comedy.

So yes, using it a subtrope of Black Comedy doesn’t work.

That's a too-narrow definition of Black Comedy, which matches neither our page nor, I think, the general understanding. Black Comedy is simply comedy about subjects which are normally considered too dark to joke about. The Other Wiki says, "a comic style that makes light of subjects that are generally considered serious or taboo." That would certainly seem to cover pedos. Heck, even if we were a little more restrictive than that quote would suggest, it would still seem to cover comedic pedos.

It's about presentation though. Anime doesn't portray it as that kind of dark humor.

"that kind"?

How is it "about presentation"? I've never seen anyone suggest something like that before. It's always been about content. I've consumed enough anime and manga to have a pretty good idea of how it's presented, and it's always looked like black comedy to me.

^^ Unclear wording, I suppose? I mean, to bring up a comparison again, that one old pedophile in Family Guy is presented as an actually creepy and dangerous person whereas you have anime like Lucky Star where one of the main character's dads is an admitted lolicon. While jokes are made about it, he's not really presented as being a bad person or anything. It's like a lot of anime treats it more like it's weird than seriously wrong. I mean, much of anime is targeted to younger audiences. I don't think you usually have that kind of serious dark humor when you're openly marketing to fifteen year olds or whatever.

I think black humor works on the series recognition that what it is joking about is offensive, serious or dark and much of anime does not accept or admit that.

edited 1st Feb '17 11:21:25 AM by Arha

There are different styles of black humor. That doesn't mean some of them aren't black humor. And a lot of western kids works include black humor as well (look at Courage the Cowardly Dog, which is listed as an example on The Other Wiki). Different types of black humor are considered more or less acceptable for kids works in different cultures, but that doesn't make them not black humor.

I have to agree with Arha, it is about presentation.

Yes Black Humor can take a lot of different subjects, but they make fun of the subject acknowledging that is something dark. Bojack Horseman is an example, makes jokes about things like pedophilia and drug abuse but in an ironic way. Same a show like Moonbeam City with different kinds of crimes and sociopathic behavior. Is presented as something to laugh at because of the misfortune of a character but not presented as a conduct that is acceptable or encouraged.

This do not apply (as I understand, as I don't see much anime) to the use of it in anime, in which is taken as light hearted comedy with the pedophilia of the character as just another funny quirk, not as something bad in-universe in case of ever materialize (even when is normally stopped). The closest thing I can think in the West are shorts like Betty Boop or Pepe Le Peu that trivialize rape/sexual harassment for fun (and if we don't get too much PC they do succeed to some degree) because it never get to happen, you only have the male character chasing the female, in a similar way how cartoons about predators vs preys have the predators trying to kill and eat the prey but they never succeed and we never get to see it. We don’t consider the Coyote and the Roadrunner to be Black Comedy even when is about the Coyote trying to kill and eat another character.

Besides if is the touching of taboo subjects, this is hardly taboo in Japan.

but they make fun of the subject acknowledging that is something dark That is not part of the requirements of Black Comedy, is it?

Just a thought, but I think Black Comedy requires both presentation and content. Arha and Luppercus already talked about presentation, I really don't have anything to add there. Instead, to rephrase what was said earlier, the content of the Black Comedy has to be something that is considered taboo/dark/bad/not-recommended. That is context-sensitive based on current or regional culture.

To use the example from the page image for Black Comedy, the greeting card is funny because the presentation (birthday's have fun and humorous cards) is used to introduce the content ("you're closer to death"). However, if we were to theoretically say that the card was shown to a culture where death did not have a negative connotation, it is no longer Black Comedy. It might not garner any reaction to said culture. On a different route, to a culture where every death is treated as a painful tragedy and never seen in good light, it may get a negative reaction.

For most of western culture at this point in time, pedoanything is not seen as applicable for Black Comedy. You don't even cross the line twice about it. It's off limits. On the flipside, Japanese/Asian culture doesn't see it as a serious taboo (at least how it's portrayed in media), so it's not applicable for Black Comedy either.

Can we just call the crowner already?

Yeah, it's pretty much decided by now.