How do the dominant cultural narratives in art and mass media affect our politics?

edited 23rd Mar '18 5:02:04 PM by GraymanofBelka

Not supposed to dump links without any context. Describe or summarize them.

I haven't finished the video yet, but in general the "Conspiracy" part is unnecessary. There isn't actually a need to be particularly secretive about this sort of thing.

Something that I spend time wondering is "what would happen if all regions suddenly could produce mainstream media".

With this I mean things as media that can reach international level in the market, like how Anime get subtitled and Dubbed to english pretty fast but this time with animation of arround all the world.

I wonder how that could be, we could judge and analyze a lot of cultures with that.

For example, if South America could have developed without USA intervention and the political chaos of the XX century, we maybe could have more popular media and more cultural influence, if that is a good thing or no...I doubt.

edited 25th Mar '18 3:31:06 PM by KazuyaProta

Also, after playing more games, I realized that the Unfortunate Implications of Shin Megami Tensei are even worse, because, well...when you think about it, the game is basically told from a perspective that is a bizarre mix between far right and centrism.

edited 25th Mar '18 4:20:57 PM by KazuyaProta

So I found these two posts about the Wendigo from a blog about writing stories about characters of color and non-white cultures.

http://writingwithcolor.tumblr.com/tagged/wendigo

http://writingwithcolor.tumblr.com/post/133355041681/so-basically-im-writing-a-supernatural-thriller

The gist of the argument is that the Wendigo when used outside it's original Algonquin context is a case of appropriation. Why? Because it isn't a mere fantasy/horror monster. It's part of a religion that is still around to this day. And using it in a non-Algonquin centered story is offensive.

This is an argument I feel I can get behind. Especially when you consider that non-white cultures tend to be used as sources of evil while their white counterparts get more variety in morality. Compare the number of media centering around Greek myth that feature the heroes from those myths or has the creatures not be outright evil vs the number of media with evil Egyptian mythological being with the heroes being white. It can also be argued that the depiction of non-white religions and myths as sources of evil contributes to racism against people of color.

Especially since most of the supernatural creatures in Classical Mythology were straight up evil monsters and even their heroes were, by modern standards, jerks.

Greeks are annoyed with Hercules, Scandinavians laugh at Thor. That's cultural appropriation too.

I agree that the fictional derivatives of non-whiteical traditions need more positive stuff appearing. Black Panther for the win!

Except it's worse with the Wendigo since the religions that Hercules and Thor came from are more or less dead. The main reason the Wendigo is cultural appropriation when used out of context is because the traditions are still being practiced by living people. Nobody really seriously worships the Olympians or the Æsir anymore. And as previously mentioned, the racial implications also make things worse.

edited 27th Mar '18 2:56:37 AM by M84

In the other side, then things as Japaneses using (Abrahamic) God Is Evil shouldn't be even worse ?

I agree that we need more accurate representations of mythology, but I doubt that using mythological beings is really a issue until you do something as having a Fantasy Kitchen Sink and all the likeable fantastic beings are coded as white

edited 27th Mar '18 5:12:21 AM by KazuyaProta

It always comes back to SMT with you, doesn't it?

Is the biggest one, but not the only.

Also, the Wendigo is actually see as villainous for its own mythology, using it as a antagonist is hardly bigotry.

Things as Everyone Hates Hades applied to currently worshipped gods (Like Kali or Shiva) is far more problematic than using a monster from another culture.

edited 27th Mar '18 6:43:25 AM by KazuyaProta

Now that I think about it, were some like Medusa evil at all? From what I remember reading, she never set out to kill anyone she just turned whoever invaded her home into stone.

Using it as an antagonist isn’t the issue. Using it as an antagonist in a story outside of its original Algonquin context is the problem. It’s the use of it in stories where it is pitted against non-Algonquin characters that’s the problem. Not to mention it’s arguably the most used aspect of Native American mythology. Greeks get Heracles, Scandanavians get Thor and Native American people get the Wendigo.

edited 28th Mar '18 12:31:08 AM by windleopard

In Classical Myth, a lot of the supernatural creatures were Always Chaotic Evil and filled with hatred for humanity and/or ate humans. The Gorgons were no exception, at least in their earliest incarnation.

It makes me wonder if the concepts of a Fantasy Kitchen Sink (where the concepts and figures are mostly derived from religions, mythologies or related folkore) and a Crossover Cosmology are inherently problematic? Especially considering the former's a large aspect of the fantasy genre and both see some use in some very popular media franchises?

edited 28th Mar '18 1:13:43 AM by MorningStar1337

I don't know if it's inherently problematic but it is something that needs to be done with care.

In Classical Myth, a lot of the supernatural creatures were Always Chaotic Evil and filled with hatred for humanity and/or ate humans. The Gorgons were no exception, at least in their earliest incarnation.

Medusa's original backstory didn't have that. That's what happens when more than one person is involved in creating the stories. And there have been adaptations and works that paint Medusa as slightly sympathetic if still a villain.

I don't believe that fiction should be segregated. I see potential in using this to teach about other cultures. And such kitchen sinks could be how people get into mythology int he first place, even, and especially SMT for all its problems.

I do think more care should be taken when going that route. I know that Pokemon, white not being as blatant with the allusions does seem to research the locations they plan on basing their regions on and their cultures. And SMT and its subseries does include bios of the demons that shows that Atlus did quite a lot of research.

To change the topic a little (and if its pertinent to the thread. I find it a little relevant considering the right wing's economics seem a little in line with the what the analysis of the movie comes to, but if it isn't I apologize), Wisecrack did a video on Bee Movie and capitalism, of all things.

edited 28th Mar '18 11:22:53 AM by MorningStar1337

That hardly surprises me, the story was about the exploited proletariat challenging the unfair dominance of a vastly stronger ruling class. The criticism of Capitalism is both blatant and unsubtle.

Medsua’s persona and story runs the gamut on how sympathetic she can be due as M84 says from time passing with different additions from different authors.

So I feel it to be perfectly acceptable for Medusa to be portrayed in the different ways she has been as a monstrous Gorgon to as a woman who was dealt a shit hand from the gods.

I reccomend Ann Shearer’s Athene: Image and Energy as a source for dealing with how Medusa has evolved and some interesting theories in the vein of Joseph Campbell

I agree with you on the Fantasy Kitchen Sink thing. I am fine with it as long is not straight up offensive.

It should be noted here that "Wendigo" is only one of several Native American "ice cannibals" that appear across the continent. Other versions include "Giwakwa", "Chenoo", "Mhuwe", "Wechuge", and "Witiko".

They're all loosely similar in the same way that various blood-sucking monsters of European myth were combined by Pollidori, Stoker, and others to create "the vampire". The difference of course, is that Europeans did that one ourselves, while our efforts at turning all of the above into a single "Wendigo" are a form of appropriation.

Side note, but one of my favourite Native American monsters? The Rugaru. He's Metis, and is the result of various Native American ice cannibal myths getting conflated with French stories about the loup-garou (werewolf).

The Rugaru was the version of the loup-garou have always been told and taught by my grand-parents or my classes on Quebec folklore (which involves a lot of First Nation stories). I find very funny how this legend went back and forth between these cultures.

Cool info, Ambar.

But yeah, I don't really see the issue here because AFIK, the Wendigo typically only comes up in fictional works in connection with the Algonquin, so I can't really say that its uses are uninformed/offensive, especially since the creature is a cannibalistic monster in the original religion/mythology as well.

And I'm uncomfortable with the broader idea that "cultural appropriation" is always bad and that "Westerners" need to take a "look but don't touch" approach toward other cultures- basically, being allowed to enjoy it, but not being permitted to use it as an influence. Which seems unfair to me, because like (for example) if Japanese creators can turn an American noir book that's sort of also a Western into a samurai movie, American creators can also turn that samurai movie into a Western.

Of course, there are a lot of bad examples of cultural appropriation, but that seems to me more like symptoms of other ills, rather than cultural appropriation itself being the problem. Like with the above example, there's lots of bad examples of whitewashing in adaptations, usually coupled with a lack of understanding of the original work, but I don't think there's anything inherently bad about doing a Setting Update, even if it entails changing the races of characters.

And like I'm also thinking of the bits I've read about the history of rock and roll in terms of white musicians taking a lot of inspiration from African American musicians. While there were a lot of bad was in which that inspiration played out, such that white musicians got fame to the exclusion of African American musicians, it wasn't the case that taking inspiration was bad in itself.

Tl; dr, people everywhere are going to like things from other cultures and it isn't bad for them to copy them, so long as its done with understanding of the original thing and sensitivity.