Persona 5- Spoiler Zone

They are still partly motivated by their own selfish desires when they do it, which is a point their personas always bring up when they call out to them to summon them. They are trying to help others, but their selfish intent is still there, which is why they use the treasures they steal for profit when it's not something personal like Sayuri. Not that it's a bad thing, since having desires including selfish ones is only natural for a human. Hope and Justice are desires just like the sins are, a point Morgana also points out.

I mean Potter shoots Not-YHVH in the face with a bullet powered by the Seven Deadly Sins by a demon lord persona that gave chaos to humanity.

Plus there's the mind-warping effects of Palaces and Shadows. Are the Phantom Thieves changing someone, or are they returning them to a more natural state? What the Phantom Thieves are doing could almost be considered brute-force therapy, done in the course of days rather than months or years.

And yeah, I pegged Akechi as a secret villain the moment I saw his smug face in a cutscene. "Pleasant boy" indeed... That hunch was reinforced when he was able to hear Morgana's voice when your class went on that field trip to the TV station.

And in all fairness, the things they take out of the Metaverse are technically fake, perfect replicas though they may be. What else are they supposed to do with them?

edited 25th Apr '17 2:23:20 PM by danime91

not to mention they prevented a suicide through their actions

I'm almost hoping there's a twist to Goro's betrayal. I mean, I'm kinda starting to like him, so it's a shame I know he's gonna sell them out. Also...the group is finally about to enter Sae's palace.

Joker was arrested while in his Phantom Thief duds...in the real word...and even fighting Shadows in the real world...and the Police Station is visible in the metaverse...

I feel like there's a lot more to this interrogation than I thought there was. I'm sure most of you are catching my line of thought. I'm not gonna ask right out. I'm just gonna keep my eyes open, because shit be whack yo.

edited 25th Apr '17 2:36:51 PM by HandsomeRob

They prevented much more than that. Worker exploitation, blackmailing students into committing crime and possibly even sex slavery, political corruption. They really do fill a much-needed niche in society because, let's face it, the law is imperfect. There will always be people who manage to find loopholes or have enough power and influence to ignore the consequences. Someone has to bring those people to justice, and the best part is, the way the Phantom Thieves do it inflicts no physical injury (mental injury is a whole different issue) and make it so that it falls under the jurisdiction of the law anyway by making the targets confess their crimes to the authorities. They do not pass sentence or declare a verdict. And the way the Metaverse, Shadows, and cognition seems to work, they can't even target someone unless that person has desires twisted enough to warrant a Shadow in the first place, meaning that the chances of targeting an innocent or someone who doesn't warrant being made a target are almost nil, and something will get fixed, whether it's a crime or not.

Just keep rolling with it. All will be explained in due time.

edited 25th Apr '17 2:32:13 PM by danime91

As someone who believes in Enlightened Self-Interest and doesn't believe true selflessness exists, I don't see the problem in them having any self interest at all. Having selfishness isn't a problem. We all need some of it to survive. It's a matter of not letting it become corrupted and out of balance with our care for others too, which is the key difference between the thieves and the villains.

Basically, them being selfish means nothing to me because I believe in dualism, not holism.

edited 25th Apr '17 2:37:36 PM by Prime_of_Perfection

@Danime: Things created by Cognition are just as real as anything found in reality. Morgana's (not actual) final words are literally about how anything is real through the power of Cognition and that there is no "Real" world as a result. All of Reality is itself a product of Cognition, not just the metaverse.

I made a comparison to SMT's Observation awhile back in the thread that was all about this.

edited 25th Apr '17 2:35:45 PM by OmegaRadiance

Seems very postmodern. especially with that warning

"I think, therefore I am" writ large, in other words. And what I mean by "fake" is that, take the example of Sayuri, for instance. Sure it's technically a physically perfect match of the original, but everyone knows it isn't, and as perfect a replica as it is, it's still technically a counterfeit. Also Kamoshida's gold medal. Again, for all intents and purposes it is a real Olympic gold medal, but it's still not the gold medal that Kamoshida won.

Though now the question is if all of Reality is a product of cognition, who was around since the beginning of the universe to think it into being in the first place? YHVH? Are Persona and SMT in the same universe/timeline?

edited 25th Apr '17 2:42:36 PM by danime91

And by how the universe itself works they are ultimately not coutnerfeits but the real deal instead. A perfect real deal. Like if you went to another alternate world and grabbed the exact same item. That doesn't make it a fake because it's from a different universe. Not unless your Cognition makes it a counterfeit replica.

And the whole gameplay mechanics for Persona using internet/streetpass for awhile have made it clear there are countless alternate persona universes out there.

Edit: Persona branched off from SMT due to Time Travel Alternate Timeline shenanigans. Not important connection beyond that. SMT's Observation does answer that question, though while they are pretty similar I don't know if I trust it to be 100% like Cognition in this regards. The Universe itself. All humans and demons are essentially its sentient thoughts.

edited 25th Apr '17 2:52:53 PM by OmegaRadiance

Ya know I disagreed with them on selling the medal.

I wanted to keep it as a trophy, something to hang over my wall as a symbol over my victory over a disgusting sex offender & how he's doing life in prison with his reputation completely in tatters, his life ending as nothing more than a pile a dogshit like the poor excuse of the human being he is.

Its a nice thought really.

edited 25th Apr '17 2:45:23 PM by slimcoder

Too recognizable, I'd think. Seeing a genuine gold medal hanging in the room of someone who isn't an Olympic athlete would draw attention, questions, and link them to the crime. Sayuri the original is different from the altered version, so there's no problem in keeping that, and all the other Treasures they sold off were regular market goods (albeit expensive or collector's items) anyway.

Too great a risk taking a trophy like that. Plus the buffet is more delicious and fun to share with others!

True but its always so fun having something to gloat ovr.

Stroking your ego is always so enjoyable.

edited 25th Apr '17 2:51:21 PM by slimcoder

But food!!!

Personally I can't wait to start NG+. Have maxed out attributes to clear those social links so much quicker and get all those attribute events I missed the first time, never be hurting for cash, finish my compendium (if I don't do it in the first run), pick different dialogue options and hang out with different people, choose a new girl to romance.

edited 25th Apr '17 2:56:59 PM by danime91

Makoto is the only choice!

I do need to look at the other routes outside of Ann and Makoto for romance, though I do feel the game has full on Implied Love Interest for Makoto. Just given the whole tease throughout the Futaba arc, how much character focus she receives, the fact her social link actually has him pose as her boyfriend, and the fact that I believe she's the only one the game incentives to go romantic route with by providing an extra move if you do.

Besides, certain scenes, like the Christmas Eve one, feels more suited for Makoto given her relationship with Sae, how things come up in particular there, and so on. While I know the others can fit in, something about her take on the scene felt more organic to the narrative as a whole.

So yeah, I'm sold on her, though all the girls are great! Futaba I couldn't ever play down the romantic route though as she just feels more like a little sister to me. Also can't go down teacher one, it squicks me way too much.

edited 25th Apr '17 3:09:48 PM by Prime_of_Perfection

All the romances provide an intensive for completing them, and Makoto isn't the only party member to get a new skill after her Confidant maxes out.

The Shipping Goggles are strong with this one. (Nah, I'm just kidding.)

Anyway, has anyone else found themselves unable to stop watching the scene where the Thieves call Shido out? It's just so cathartic.

edited 25th Apr '17 3:22:07 PM by LordVatek

Not the normal ones you get, I saw something I found weird. That there's an ability you get from romance route with her you don't get from platonic. If what I was just reading up though just lied about that and I'm wrong, strike that from the record!

That much I won't debate (on shipping goggles bias) even if I do stand by my arguments and I outright say I need to look more into Haru's route. Ann I do like, just feels more like a close friendship than the story nudging towards romantic interpretation, though I'm cool with her in the role.

Also, agreed on Shido! Was so waiting for his takedown above all else. Well, him and Kamoshida, but Kamoshida is just the perfect entry villain and Hate Sink.

edited 25th Apr '17 3:56:54 PM by Prime_of_Perfection

I'm actually locked in on Kawakami for this run. Because adorable teacher-maid is best teacher-maid. And dear Lord I wish I had her social link maxed out from the get-go. So useful. Currently debating between Makoto, Ann, and Tae for the next run, though my goal is to eventually romance all of them.

edited 25th Apr '17 4:01:18 PM by danime91

Yeah there's nothing wrong with interpreting scenes like that at all. Personally, I prefer Makoto as a "girl bro" (is there a term for that?) and didn't find the game to ship them any more than anyone else (pretty much everyone gets ship tease with Joker outside of Confidants) but that was just how I saw it. The whole deal is about as subjective as it gets.

edited 25th Apr '17 4:03:31 PM by LordVatek

Really? I definitely feel that Makoto got a lot of shiptease, especially during the Futaba Palace infiltration. Moreso than Ann, Futaba, or Haru anyway. And that's not even taking her social link into consideration. And apparently she's considered the top fanon ship?

edited 25th Apr '17 4:07:49 PM by danime91

For me, ship tease goes beyond just people being nice to one another. Being nice I feel can be interpreted in a number of ways. The reason Makoto stood out to me is because it's written into the story repeatedly. Like, Sojiro thing could be a one off, that's fine. Then there's the whole interpretation of it during her social link when not dating followed up by the having to pretend to be in a relationship. That's when I'm like "...Alright, now I feel like I'm being nudged when I've dealt with She's Not My Girlfriend" repeatedly. Then add in she has more story focus than the others and it makes me question Atlus' intent. Oh yeah and the whole Sphinx thing, him tackling her out of the way and just way it presented things looking, but I feel that to a lesser extent.

She's my favorite either way for personal reasons, I'm just wondering if my bias makes me interpret it as such or if others notice a pattern here the others don't have. Also why I mentioned said romance exclusive move because if that is true, I feel it incentives her to get a benefit you wouldn't from platonic route.

edited 25th Apr '17 4:15:30 PM by Prime_of_Perfection

From what I've seen Makoto is far and away the most popular love interest.