Condemned by History cleanup thread

Is Toby Keith really still eligible for this? Seems like there was a huge outpouring over his death.

He was brought up before and the consensus was no.

Did we ever reach a consensus on if Spoony should be cut?

Personally, I think his older works are still well liked enough to disqualify him.

There seems to be more dislike about what Spoony has done to himself and others than hate of any of his old works. Granted, that stuff falls into all the traps of late-2000s "Angry Reviews", but they're still liked by fans.

There's an entry in the Professional Wrestling folder that I have doubts about:

• Ashley Massaro was very popular when she was first introduced, winning the third WWE Diva Search easily by fan votes and was liked for her unique look. However, after a disastrous match at WrestleMania 23 with Melina, constant injuries, and fellow Divas such as Michelle McCool, Layla, Candice Michelle, and Kelly Kelly putting work in to become better wrestlers, audience opinion of Massaro turned sour. The final nail came when Massaro was exposed as possibly working for a high-class escort agency, and requested to be released in order to care for her daughter. While Massaro attempted to make a comeback on the indies, she eventually got a reputation for no-showing events she was advertised for. While some opinion on her has softened since her untimely passing, she's nonetheless remembered as a representation of everything that was wrong with the Divas division after Lita and Trish Stratus retired.

In the years since Massaro's suicide, especially after Vince McMahon's sexual abuse allegations and subsequent resignation from WWE caused greater awareness of her own allegations of sexual abuse at the company, wrestling fans have softened considerably on Massaro. While many in the IWC readily admit her lack of in-ring skills, she's increasingly viewed as a victim of an exploitative and abusive system that never gave her a chance as opposed to never having talent to begin with.

I don't know that much about pro wrestling, so I can't say for sure.

Ever since Quiet on Set aired last month Dan Schneider's works have been lingering in the back of my head. According to Quinton Reviews, he is "most associated with 9 programs: All That, The Amanda Show, Drake & Josh, Zoey 101, iCarly, Victorious, Sam & Cat, Henry Danger, and Game Shakers."

(Personally, I also count What I Like About You as being part of Schneider's repertoire, due to it starring fellow Nick alum Amanda Bynes and reruns of it airing on The N between its split from Noggin and its rebranding as TeenNick. This is despite me being unsure if he was the primary showrunner - to say nothing of it originally airing on a completely different network and catering towards a slightly different audience.)

Do any of these shows qualify for CBH? Cuz I definitely know several of these shows DON'T qualify, but I'm pretty sure at least one does. What do you guys think?

Edited by JHD0919 on Apr 22nd 2024 at 10:43:55 AM

I think the awful behind-the-scenes troubles could be Overshadowed by Controversy since they’ve become a huge part of discussion around the Schneiderverse shows (even before Quiet On Set, the allegations have gone back to Schneider's dismissal from Nick in 2017).

There are still people who like these shows despite all of the terrible stuff that's happened. I think the only ones that would count for CBH would be Sam and Cat (since Jennette McCurdy talking about the horrors behind-the-show has overshadowed an otherwise forgotten kid-com). Besides that, they still all have followings, but have also acknowledged what happened.

Edited by CanuckMcDuck1 on Apr 22nd 2024 at 11:09:51 AM

In hindsight, I'm somewhat torn on American Beauty being considered CBH. From critics' perspectives, it still seems condemned, but from an audience perspective, it seems as though the film has undergone a bit of Popularity Polynomial within the last 5 years. Audiences still acknowledge that the premise is controversial and that the involvement of Kevin Spacey deducts some points, but from what I've seen, modern audiences seem to view a lot of the film's themes as being more resonant now than they were post-9/11, and that, for all of the film's problems, it manages to raise legitimately good points about the working class.

Sam & Cat was always a Contested Sequel compared to its predecessors and has long been notorious for its production problems, so I don't think it would count as it lacks the initial widespread popularity. The rest I believe are still beloved despite their issues, to the point I don't even think any of them but Sam & Cat and The Amanda Show have been fully OBC (as the latter is very tied to its actress pre-spiral and the former wasn't as popular as its parent shows and was bogged down by rumors surrounding its actresses even before Jennette's account came out).

Schneider himself / his production company might broadly count, however, since enough time has passed since he left the network.

Edited by mightymewtron on Apr 22nd 2024 at 9:47:07 AM

Do creators count? It seems weird to list them if their works aren't? Since they you know created said works?

I mean, it's the death of the author stuff.

I'm not sure, and he is on Fallen Creator already so maybe that's a better suited place for creators. But I do feel like specific shows fare well because the specific characters and actors are well liked, while the brand doesn't. That's also part of why I think The Amanda Show is OBC, because there's little narrative to discuss as a sketch show and it's tied to an actress with a controversial relationship with the creator.

Side tangent, but any thoughts on this?

I agree that condemned is too strong a word. The entry sums up the film's declining critical reputation well and could maybe be repurposed into Hype Backlash. But a film with a 4.0 on Letterboxd and 8.3 on IMDb "condemned"?

Edited by rasterax on Apr 23rd 2024 at 10:24:38 AM

I only noticed because of the very defensive entry on the Discussion page, but I don't feel like Donkey Kong 64 counts:

• Donkey Kong 64 was praised by players and critics when it came out, scoring 90 on Metacritic as the 13th best N64 game, the game was praised for it's size, having big 3D levels and 5 Kongs to pick, and the game to this day is still loved by it's soundtrack by Grant Kirkhope. But as times went by, people started being more critical of the bad game design, the main complaint was not only the exaggeration of items to collect, granting this game a Guiness World Record, but forcing many items to be picked only by one specific Kong, making this game seem like actually 5 separate games in one, and worse, constantly forcing players to switch Kongs in the Tag Barrels. While Donkey Kong 64 still has its fans to this day that challenge those criticisms, this game is often blamed for dealing a blow to Collect-a-Thon Platformers.

It's inarguably less praised today than it was back in the day, but I feel like that's more waning relevance of older games than anything else. It's still frequently requested for NSO and I don't think it was ever a Sacred Cow or anything. I feel like people that liked it then wouldn't condemn it so much as meet it with mostly indifference at worst.

If soemthing like The Lost Levels was dertmined to not count, despite never having met a fan of the game, I definitely feel DK 64 is invalid

Don't mean to derail the above, but MegaJ removed the entry for X-Play (which seems to have been agreed to be added as per above), saying it was both relegated to Twitter and complainy. I don't think the ordeal was relegated to Twitter but I'm not sure if removing the entry was agreed to.

I have a problem with this entry:

• The 3D Adventures of Sailor Moon was praised by publications in its day for its stunning graphics. As games with more impressive graphics came out over the following years, that appeal faded away, and now it's remembered as a collection of mediocre minigames with low-quality voice acting that struggles to run on newer systems, with only its soundtrack standing out.

First, I tried looking up reviews for this game and can't find anything about it's "stunning graphics". Second, said graphics are fucking hideous◊, even for their day. I can think of a dozen games from around that time period that look way better. Third, the entry only mentions the graphics without mentioning any other qualities people liked about this game back in the day. It wasn't some groundbreaking masterpiece whose influence is lost to time thanks to changing tastes and social norms, it basically boils down to "This is a boring Minigame Game whose graphics haven't aged well." This isn't even a particularly noteworthy release. It was a run-of-the-mill licensed PC game for kids.

EDIT: I don't think we discussed removing X-Play.

Edited by supernintendo128 on Apr 23rd 2024 at 3:50:54 AM

Yeah, i dont think it qualifies as the game never seemed to hit widely loved levels. Its just a minor footnote in video game history.

Xplay was discussed here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=14654177060A30520700&page=138

No one seemed to disagree with its inclusion and it sounded like the only question was whether it should be expanded.

I didn't weigh in, but I think it can absolutely count. I just think that with gaming becoming more mainstream and access to game footage becoming effortless, the show would become just a forgotten (or possibly even beloved for its time) relic. But problematic and really cringe-y skits make avowing it difficult. I'm not even talking about whatever Asian racism they're talking about, just general Turn Of The Millenium painful humor that's aged like milk along with annoying gamer stereotypes. I think a combination of Once Original, Now Overdone took its relevance and Values Dissonance has done it in and even if the specific incident in question is a tempest in a teapot, it's not in generally well-regarded anymore.

Edited by Larkmarn on Apr 24th 2024 at 11:16:26 AM

So I am I free to remove Donkey Kong 64?

I'd wait for at least one more vote. Currently it's only 2-1 in favor of cutting.

On the topic of creators, if people still liking some of a person's creations is enough to prevent them from qualifying no matter how badly their personal and/or professional reputation declines, I think we might have to cut Bill Cosby. I still see some people talk about enjoying Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids and The Cosby Show, though admittedly with talk about "separating the art from the artist" and acknowledging how they've become Harsher in Hindsight.

Cut DK 64. It being one of my favorite games aside, the game is far from condemned and still has supporters. It's more of a Contested Sequel.