Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice Spoiler Thread

If you somehow already saw one of the biggest superhero movies of the year and wanna talk about all the spoilery stuff that probably blew your mind, this is the place to spill the beans.

Basically, if you have spoilers pertaining to Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, they should go here.

So without further ado, indulge thyselves.

Just got back from the cinema. Random thoughts:

• "I need to lure it back to city." No, you don't. Keep the dude on the empty island and let someone else get the spear.

• The Bruce/Clark fight is very obviously inspired by The Dark Knight Returns, but it works.

• Batman's fight with the warehouse dudes looks very Arkham-ish, complete with weapon disruptors and batclaw takedowns. It's awesome.

• Batman kills people? That's doesn't have to be a problem on it's own, but how the hell is the Joker still alive if this is the case?

Nevermind. Wrong thread.

edited 23rd Mar '16 1:38:38 PM by VeryMelon

Well, so much for "Superman will now never kill again"....I am not as hung up on Superman killing than some other fans are, but, well....

Is Warner bros taking the piss on the fans?

The movie did address the collateral damage complaints from Mo S in ways that were so overt as to border on fourth wall breaking. I'm.. fairly sure the Joker is really, really dead in this universe. Did I miss a line that implied different? That seems really likely to have been the breaking-point for his no-killing rule going out the window, in fact.

Not giving wonder woman the spear seems a bit silly, tactically speaking, but Super isn't really much of a tactical mind, he's never needed to be, so as a character beat, not taking the time to play pass the baton works.

That was actually one of the wonderful things about the end fight. It's blatantly obvious that wonder woman has been at this rodeo show before. Many, Many times. Heck, minus the spear, supes and the bats I'd give it fairly good odds of her winning eventually anyway, tough it would have taken a while and there wouldn't have been that much Gotham standing after she managed to cut him into enough bits, given doomsdays habit of exploding constantly.

Have I mentioned how much I love Gal Gadots Wonder Woman? Because it is a whole lot. The movie needed more of her. She oozes charisma, both in civilian gear and when in the full costume. And the costume is amazing. They managed a live action wonder woman costume that is iconic as all heck. I forsee a lot of cosplayers attempting to recreate it. Also much time spent in the gym to pull it off ;)

edited 23rd Mar '16 3:32:22 PM by Izeinsummer

Well, the Joker shows up in Suicide Squad. I guess his scenes might all be flashbacks or something though.

It's just personal taste really. I prefer a Batman who doesn't (intentionally) kill people. I guess this version is at least somewhat reasonable about it though. Go at him with a knife, he knocks you out. Shoot at him with a heavy machine gun, he shoots back. I can't say I really blame him.

Re: Batman killing. The tie-in books/comics actually say he's brutal but never kills and uses nonlethal methods/weaponry. I guess the movie itself didn't say this since killing keeps coming up in reviews and reactions., and that's entirely on Snyder's head. If they could address the collateral damage, they could have addressed this.

Apparently both Superman and Batman are killing in this movie. Superman some terrorist who attacked Louis and Batman apparently killed the Joker. (Nope, I haven't seen the movie myself, but considering the reviews, I am not worried about spoilers at this point. I couldn't resist to listen to Moviebobs review anyway...still curious why the Lex Luther's piss is a plot point).

The Joker's not dead since he's in Suicide Squad.

In a flashback.....

Ok, so I just got back from seeing this movie.

I'll get the good parts out of the way: I honestly think most of the actors are pretty decent and worked well with the material that they were presented. Jeremy Irons is a great Alfred and performs the whole Servile Snarker thing flawlessly, his quips were the funniest part of the movie and tbh he's probably my favorite character in general out of the whole thing. Gal Gadot is a pretty decent Wonder Woman, I have no complaints about her at all (well, maybe just one, but I'll get to that later down the line). Affleck is pretty good, I think most reasonable people were convinced he was going to be ok at this point. Amy Adams brings a certain warmth to Lois that I actually really enjoy (it's her eyes), and she and Cavill are pretty convincing in their roles.

Certain scenes in the movie, are very well done and these are the moments the movie gets the closest to its mission statement. The tub scene, any scene between Superman and Lois or Martha Kent, Superman's death, etc are great. Of particular note is the opening scene that shows us the iconic Waynes' death moment we're all familiar with, and Bruce Wayne witnessing Superman's battle against Zod and Faora. This is by far the strongest part of the movie; there's this horrible sense of terror present, you see everything from Bruce's perspective, and the only thing he sees is destruction EVERYWHERE; buildings are crashing down everywhere, one of his employees loses his legs in the chaos, and he saves a little girl from dying and holds her while he watches these two aliens who he knows nothing about destroying the city with their battle. In that moment you completely understand why he resents Superman and why he wants to kill him. It also establishes him as an honestly pretty kind-hearted person in some ways even if he is a brutal vigilante.

Also the action scenes are fairly good but really would you have expected any different?

So what exactly is wrong with this movie?

Well...there are a LOT of complaints I have to make, and for some of them I'm not so sure that I have the right words. Have you guys ever seen a movie where you can see so much potential, where all the actors, the plot ideas, the characterization, etc was present but the movie just doesn't use them in the right way? That's exactly what I felt like when I saw this movie.

To begin with, despite the title, Superman and Batman actually don't spend that much time on-screen together besides the big fight scene we've all seen in the trailers. They have one meeting in their civilian personas, one meeting where both are in costume (the one scene where Superman rips the Batmobile open and tells Batman to cut that shit out), and then some stuff happens and then they fight. I wasn't able to clock this obviously, but I actually think that Batman spends more time talking to Wonder Woman than Superman. The scene that shows us the birth of Batman's dislike for Superman by witnessing the destruction from his perspective is very well done, but even that is not enough to really give the weight their confrontation needs. It feels like their fight happens way too soon into the movie, like there was stuff that happened and built up to it yeah and it STILL felt like it was not enough.

And about their confrontation, you know what was really dumb? Showing us Doosmday and the trinity teamup in the trailers. I'm sure if they hadn't spoiled that it would have been a genuine surprise and a decent moment, but because they spoiled it I was basically "oh ok this is the part where this happens now I guess".

This basically ends up making their fight feel a lot more weightless than it should be, and by extension, their relationship. Batman talks about honoring his memory of whatever but it just feels hollow; yes he probably realized Superman was not as bad as he thought he was because he was willing to die to stop Doomsday, but at the end of the day he still doesn't know that much about him. The scene where Superman calls out his mother's name (which is also Bruce's) was done relatively well and I think worked in showing to Batman that Superman had a more human side to him, but it's not enough.

Speaking of the human side (and this is more of a general complaint with the portrayal of Superman in both Mo S and this movie), you know what the best parts with Superman in this movie were? They weren't really the ones where Superman has all this messiah imagery, or where the world is questioning him and yadda yadda yadda. It's the scenes he has with Lois and his mother, and the dream he has where he speaks to his father. You know, the scenes where we actually see the human side to Superman and help make him more relatable. Mo S and this film need WAY more of those and less of the on-the-nose Messiah stuff.

You'll notice that I didn't mention Jesse Eisenberg in the list of actors so far, and that's because I'm not sure that I can make up my mind about him. In certain scenes I feel like the whole "eccentric goofball that's actually a douche" thing works in his favor and you can actually accept him as just another version of Luthor, but then there are certain scenes where his dialogue is way too Narm that it detracts from his character. The whole "SON OF KRYPTON VERSUS BAT OF GOTHAM" thing wasn't as bad in the context of the actual movie thankfully, but he had other lines that were much more awkward and not in a good way. I feel like if he was doing a more subdued performance Eisenberg could have made this work but much like the movie itself it stumbles just as much as it succeeds.

And actually, speaking of dialogue, the dialogue in this movie is a mixed bag on the whole. A lot of them are honestly fine, but when the dialogue is bad it is worse than anything in the Nolan movies, which were already criticized for being pretentious and on-the-nose. At least in the Nolan movies I could feel a certain Narm Charm and I actually felt like the movies had something interesting to say and a cool style to them even if they were being pretentious about it, here it's just annoying because the film hasn't earned anything.

To be honest in some ways this feels way more like a setup for Justice League than a movie focused on telling its own compelling story; I say that because I do feel the movie is legitimately trying to tell a story, but the execution is lackluster enough that the tie-ins are hard to really get excited about and just feel gratuitous.

All the tie-ins to Justice League could have been stingers and were completely unnecessary. While I like Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman, she didn't need to be in this movie. Batman's dream/prophecy thing comes out nowhere, takes up way too much time and doesn't need to be in this movie. All the hints of the other JL members could have been stingers. Maybe if the movie itself were better constructed I wouldn't be complaining, but for a movie that is over 2 hours long and STILL didn't feel like enough in the character department happened, they couldn't really have afforded to include this.

I don't think this movie is really BAD; I was never bored during it, and there were some good parts, but it still feels like a lukewarm disappointment. For all the self-important imagery and dialogue, this movie actually has a lot less to say than the better Marvel movies like Winter Soldier or the better DC movies like the Nolan trilogy.

And the sad part is, everything for a good movie was present. It is not Henry Cavill's fault (I remain convinced he could be a great Superman if he had better material to work with ), nor is it Ben Affleck's, Amy Adams', or even Jesse Eisenberg who I feel had the most uneven performance. This is pretty much just a problem with the director.

I really hope that Snyder gets kicked off Justice League and that Suicide Squad ends up being a way stronger movie than this (in fact, some people next to me were pretty much saying that they expected that to be the case). I'm sorry Snyder, you had two chances and you botched both of them. You have things that you're very good at (action scenes and stylized visuals), but that is not enough to carry a movie.

edited 23rd Mar '16 9:24:41 PM by wehrmacht

There is no way that's the case.

okay...can anyone explain to me the thing with the jar of piss? I have read that one in two reviews now.

For that matter, what on earth is Lex's, motivation? Like, he wants to see Superman brought down, but why? Is he scared of him? Does he just have a thing against god-like beings?

Didn't the trailer spell it out already? I mean, it's better than hitching him up with some symbolic sin or other, but Luthor's motivations for villainy have never been particularly rational, while anyone expressing reasonable suspicion and criticism of superheroes is almost literally anathema in the DCU.

I"m mostly unimpressed by him being a blatant parody of modern tech moguls - for all of it being a natural continuation of the mad scientist/corrupt businessman line, evil Mark Zuckerberg simply isn't a menacing idea.

As far as we know of, Mark Zuckerburg hasn't killed anyone aside from a few chickens in his home farm.

The whole jar of piss thing felt horribly misguided and it's basically the only thing I really didn't like about that film.

Lex has a meeting with Senator Finch (Holly Hunter) at his home and asks her if he can call her June. She says something among the lines of: 'You can call me whatever you want. Take a jar of piss and call it grandma's peach tea. Just don't expect me to actually buy it.'

After that Lex helps a guy who lost both his legs during the events of Man of Steel start a hearing against Superman. Superman actually shows up to the hearing and just as the senator is about to start her speech she notices there's a jar of piss on her desk, labelled 'grandma's peach tea'. She sees Luthor's reserved seat is empty. Then the wheelchair guy (I think his name's Wesley Keefe, but I'm not sure) blows himself up. Everyone in attendance dies, except for Superman. Apart from a few scenes, it's never brought up again.

As for the film itself, I enjoyed it way more then I expected too. I wouldn't call it good, but I never got bored and at times it gets so huge that I couldn't help but smile. I just really dislike the scene I described above, because it felt way too dark, even for this universe. Not to mention the film got released here a day after the Brussels suicide bombings, so the whole thing made me feel really queasy.

edited 24th Mar '16 3:50:53 AM by Rvdz

I can imagine.

So, does Clark even try to tell Batman that Lex Luthor is threatening Martha Kent? At the beginning of the fight, that is. The spoilers don't have me impressed. There's a reason I thought they were just more fake spoilers. Now I'm imagining a Silver Age type scenario where Batman and Superman fake Batman's death, Superman gives Batman's "head"(actually a fake head that looks real, Batman already had it in his Batcave just in case), and Batman rescues Martha.

The Joker has a knack for surviving situations where he should have died— even if this Batman does kill, there's a good chance he tried to kill the Joker once or several times and Joker just survived them for some reason— Batman pushed him to a fall but Never Found the Body, or Harley or the police saved the Joker right in time, or Joker just escaped after Batman foiled his plan... The Frank Miller (who Snyder consulted!) version of Batman kills criminals, but his Joker still survived for decades, even after murdering Jason Todd.

A few rumors about Suicide Squad say the Joker shows up in the present day besides the flashbacks, directly opposing the Squad.

edited 24th Mar '16 6:41:52 AM by NapoleonDeCheese

Are we sure the Joker is a normal human? Guy has more lives than a cat.

If Superman can recover from fatal injuries, what's keeping Zod from pulling the same trick? Other than Zod not wanting to come back and Clark would want to come back?

Another thing to consider with Batman's no kill policy is, generally it's agreed Robin's influence softened him to some degree or another, even in continuities where he never killed to begin with, and once he loses Robin Batman tends to go far more unhinged.

Then Batman needs a new Robin! Is Clark too old for the position? When will Clark ever get some tactical skills?

edited 24th Mar '16 6:59:21 AM by bookworm6390

...

Basically, yes. He's inherently distrustful of anything resembling a god because of his abusive upbringing by his father (lex senior, an immigrant from eastern europe). He hates the idea of a godlike being like Superman existing and being revered, so he wants the populace to lose faith in him.