Diversity and Representation in Media

47 Ronin had what looks like a cast of >90% Japanese, and many would argue that Hiroyuki Sanada is the main protagonist. The problem, however, is that everyone, even Sanada, is instantly overshadowed by the mere presence of Keanu Reeves.

It's not just a mere matter of portrayal, because Hollywood's perfectly fine with throwing in supporting roles and the occasional co-lead. What the people really want is an Asian Tyler Perry: someone in Hollywood who is willing to fully run with a cast of real Asians, barring perhaps background extras.

(By "real Asians" I am attempting to exclude those that have been able to pull But Not Too Foreign, such as the aformentioned Keanu Reeves and Kristen Kreuk.)

edited 3rd Mar '16 9:38:36 PM by Watchtower

Sincere question, do you ever have anything to add to racial discussions other than deliberately trying to stir shit or put up strawman arguments for minorities trying to talk about representation?

Because near as I can tell you just basically like to throw grenades and then bow out.

edited 3rd Mar '16 10:12:37 PM by comicwriter

I call 'em as I sees 'em. To be a strawman I'd have to deliberately misrepresent someone's position.

I like to think I provide an outside perspective to the echo chamber of how racist Hollywood executives are and how terrible it is that Emma Stone was cast in Aloha (as a random example).

To be honest most of your arguments I've seen seem to stem from the idea that there's an even playing field for people of all ethnicities to begin with, which is demonstrably false. There are quotes from actors earlier in the thread that show that executives, if not actively racist, seem to have poor and outdated ideas of what makes a movie successful, which includes the idea that their race makes them not marketable enough for certain roles.

Anyways, I think getting too into "what defines a real asian" is kind of pointless, but I think I understand the idea, which is basically that people of mixed race who look But Not Too Foreign are more liable to get roles. I think people of mixed descent do absolutely count as representation anyways, but I do understand the concerns that a person that looks "too asian" might not be allowed a lead role and how that is a problem.

edited 3rd Mar '16 10:36:48 PM by wehrmacht

I don't think that this is about "not looking too foreign", but about beauty standards. We tend to perceive certain things as beautiful. And Asians do too, btw. In China, light skin, big eyes, long hair, full lips and small feet are considered beautiful. That is not even something we brought to them, this ideal existed long beforehand. Chines woman even carry masks at the beach in order to protect their skin from getting "too dark".

Beauty standards aren't all the same in every country, though.

No, they aren't. Which is why I talked specifically about one example.

I guess though that Hollywood mostly goes for the western beauty standards, especially when it is about female actresses (they tend to be more flexible with the male ones).

The specific "lighter skin is more beautiful" concept is pretty common, though. And is not related to white superiority at all, but the result of wealthy people not being forced to work in the sun. Therefore lighter skin looks more wealthy.

edited 4th Mar '16 12:32:42 AM by Swanpride

The idea that rich people are more beautiful has its own problems. Though with the pale skin one could argue that it's a beauty ideal that at least doesn't promote skin cancer ... that is, in people who don't use chemicals to make their skin whiter.

Also, the Western beauty ideal is nowadays more tanned, since most hard-working people now work in buildings and only the rich can afford to go on expensive vacations in sunny places. (Or is that already out again?)

In general, I am looking forward to the first successful Hollywood film with a cast where there is not a single white man. That'll change things. Once they have to admit that it's not the moviegoers but they themselves who don't want women and Po C in the movies, it'll get a lot harder to justify their casting choices. (Okay, maybe I'm a bit too negative here and it's actually self-censoring because they honestly believe that people don't want to see accurate portrayals of Asian people by Asian people, but ... I just can't believe someone believes that.)

In a way the western view on beauty has diversified over the year. Not sure how it is in other cultures. But at least we are now at a point at which a lot of body shapes (not all of them, though) are considered beautiful. IE Haley Atwell with her hourglass figure, the dark hair and the light skin, Dark-skinned and tall Zoe Saldana and small Sca Jo are all have admires. As have a number of Actresses which have already reached a certain age. Meryl Streep for example is quite an enigmatic figure, which a lot of men would consider attractive. I think we are moving more and more away from the concept that female beauty has to fit into a certain form, and more and more towards the idea that charisma makes a woman beautiful.

In general, I am looking forward to the first successful Hollywood film with a cast where there is not a single white man. That'll change things

That would largely depend on the film's setting. Hmmmm. Maybe........Egypt? Heh heh.

edited 4th Mar '16 6:29:08 AM by nervmeister

I'm not a fan of the...aggressive approach that Eagal took, but I specifically brought up Kreuk's role as Chun-Li to make a similar point.

I remember the backlash that came from Kreuk's casting. "Why does Hollywood think this white chick can pass as Chinese?" "Oh sure, she's Chinese....if you squint your eyes, tilt your head, and drink a keg." "Why can't we have someone like Zhang Ziyi? Y'know, an actual Chinese actress?"

And I totally agree with the sentiment that Hollywood should be more open and equal to international actors. I'm just trying to illustrate that But Not Too Foreign isn't going to cut it anymore.

Except you absolutely did. They made a (correct) point about Hollywood being more comfortable with mixed or biracial Asians who look closer to white, and then you somehow presented that as "Asian Americans in general don't count." Which is not unlike the various times I've seen you go to places like the MCU thread during discussions about diversity to say stuff like "Yes, white people are evil and the devil and clearly don't belong in superhero movies. White people are awful!"

The problem with Kristen Kreuk was not that she wasn't born in China (though her attempts at Mandarin and Cantonese were terrible), it's that it seemed like the execs deliberately went for a mixed woman who looked closer to white passing because they didn't want their movie about an Asian heroine to actually look like it was starring an Asian heroine. Given the reviews her performance received, she sure as hell wasn't cast because of her acting talent or martial arts experience.

edited 4th Mar '16 7:34:37 AM by comicwriter

Does this look white?◊

I have no intention of sounding like an ass; I've always been curious. Because yeah, I don't buy her as native Chinese at all, but I do see her as an Asian-Caucasian mix.

And then there's this guy,◊ who played Jin Kazama in the Tekken movie that slipped by everyone's radar. Is he also white-passing?

They both look mixed-race to me.

I don't necessarily see a problem with that really, diversity also includes people of mixed heritage, but the reasons why they may be cast could be problematic.

I seriously had no idea she was part Chinese until someone told me. All those years she was on Smallville, I actually thought she might be Latina.

Admittedly a major part of the problem with that was basically the inverse of the Fake Mixed Race trope. Both her parents seem to be full-blooded Chinese from what we see, which makes her seem even more jarring. I saw a review joking about how in the scenes set in Asia, Chun-Li is about a foot taller and 6 shades lighter than everyone around her.

John Foo I didn't have as much of a problem with (mostly because I never saw Tekken).

edited 4th Mar '16 9:34:04 AM by comicwriter

I often see a problem where the focus is on the exact ethnicity and skin tone rather than the core problem. Several times when discussing Khan being played Benedict Cumberbatch people bring up that Ricardo Montalban was not true Mexican but a lighter skinned Spanish Mexican. It doesn't really make things better, as it starts criticizing the actor for not being dark or ethnic enough to count as diversity. It's like what Chris Rock said at the Oscars, he is just looking for a job and doesn't want someone else to take it. Not all actors make millions a year, it's insane to think an actor should refuse a job because they think someone else is more skin-tone appropriate.

I didn't begrudge Kreuk for taking the role. Hollywood is tough, so I'm not gonna badmouth someone for taking a part.

My criticism was never of mixed race actors taking roles for full-blooded characters, but of the studios and execs who go for mixed race actors (and I'm specifically referring to mixed race actors who favor their white parent) specifically because of the But Not Too Foreign aspect.

It's the same reason that even when I see minority actors taking shitty and offensively written parts, I don't get annoyed at the actor, but the people writing. The actor is just trying not to starve, most of the time.

edited 4th Mar '16 1:25:23 PM by comicwriter

I've mentioned here before that I'm biracial (half white, half Chinese). I would love to see more mixed-race representation in media, but at the same time, I just don't have enough faith in current-day Hollywood to do it tastefully. As had been said here before, far too often they just see it as an excuse to cast a completely white actor, which is just yet more whitewashing. Aloha is still a prime example of this.

I kind of hate that even when a mixed-race actor manages to land a part, I can't help asking, "Did you cast them because you want to provide representation for an underrepresented racial group? Or did you cast them because they were the whitest person you thought you could get away with?"

Yeah, I don't really blame the actors either. They need to work, and they don't exactly have casting directors lining up at their doors with offers, so they don't really have the luxury of turning down roles. It's the fault of the writers and creators, not the actors themselves.

Edit: Just came across this, a prime example of the kind of crap Asian actors have to put up with in this business.

edited 4th Mar '16 3:23:40 PM by RBluefish

Honest question; does this count as irony?

Zoe Saldana, not black enough. Accused of wearing blackface to portray one Nina Simone. Told to go to hell by Simone's family.

Regarding the "should biracials (which I am too) be able to portray any of their halves?", I point out that Keegan Michael-Key and Jordan Peele of Key & Peele are both half-black half-white. But throughout the episodes one notices that Keegan plays different ethnicities and "white" characters much more than Jordan, who usually stays with black characters. So one should also take Suspension of Disbelief into regards like they have.

I think on SNL, Fred Armisen was a mix of a lot of different races and was still able to do a good series of imitations of Barack Obama (not without some controversy, though). His replacement as Obama's impersonator, Jay Pharaoh, is purely African-American, and he's done a good job as well.

I would take pretty much any Daily Fail link with a grain of salt. Isn't there a more reliable source?

edited 4th Mar '16 3:30:54 PM by Quag15

Suspension of belief is a good phrase for it, thank you. That's basically what I was trying (badly) to articulate about the Chun-Li example. It wasn't that she was mixed, it was that for a variety of reasons (heavily favoring her white parent despite having two Asian parents in the movie, not being able to speak Mandarin or Cantonese very well, not having any real martial arts talent), I could not buy her as a native Chinese kung-fu expert.

She was simply miscast in just about every area, but it seemed like they went for her because she was the palest and most anglo-looking Asian woman they could find. Conversely, Ming-Na from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. played Chun-Li in the original (and still terrible) movie from the 90's, and was far less awkward a casting choice. And not just because she actually looks like Chun-Li is supposed to, either.

edited 4th Mar '16 3:34:08 PM by comicwriter

I absolutely understand why people are angry about the casting of Zoe Saldana. As detractors point out, why on Earth would you put gobs of makeup (including, apparently, a wider nose, thicker lips, and darker skin) on a certain actress - all of which costs money, let's not forget - in order to make her features appear more conventionally black...when you could just cast someone who already had those features?

Here's a couple.

edited 4th Mar '16 3:33:37 PM by RBluefish