Does the DCAU still hold up?

Not trying to diss Flash's enemies, but I didn't really know about them till years later. And even then I don't know much about them. Though that may have to do with me not having much knowledge about Flash in general.

The Justice League episode with Grodd, Flash gets turned into an ape, right? Cause I think that may be one of the few episodes I saw as a kid and I think if that did happen and wasn't just some weird dream than I remember it freaking me out. That was probably why I didn't watch much of the show when I was little(well, that and cause I found it boring as a kid. I plan to watch soon though).

There were a few episodes with him - the first one was Mind Control, the second was him making the leader of the Secret Society, then he was the Big Bad of the last arc of Justice League Unlimited before being supplanted by Luthor (the episode where Luthor overthrew him was the "turn people into apes" episode).

I hear that a lot when they're given an outside glance, but whether they have that problem in the comics is subject to debate (well, at least they have they're in the same place as most of Superman's terrestrial enemies or some of Batman's less imposing villains: sure, if the writers wanted to focus on their powers the hero could eradicate them in a moment, but that's more Fridge Logic than evident in the plot). At any rate, if they want to the writers don't have much problem making them threatening to the Flash.

At any rate, what makes The Rogues interesting isn't how powerful the are, it's how they've been built up and how they relate to Barry and Wally as characters (think Two-Face - a character whose personality and character dynamics are the most important part about them). Despite the obvious power difference, I couldn't imagine them not being enemies to Barry or Wally, and that's just with a casual interest in the Flash mythos. Though admittedly, Cold being the front-personality helps a lot.

The difference between Captain Cold and Mr. Freeze, in fact, is a good comparison when talking about why Mr. Freeze failed as a character before getting his DCAU backstory while Cold didn't.

edited 8th Jul '15 8:16:51 PM by KnownUnknown

Captain boomerang though.

And grodd was just very absurd both conceptually and in how his debut episode was written. Very outlandish to where it's more narm than Narm Charm plus he's just not a very interesting character, being the typical I'M A GORILLA HUMANZ IS STOOPID cliche'(with mind control!). The thing about highly advanced human hating primates loses its novelty very quickly, and I'd rather that Flash actually get a serious villain for once that is not an evil version of him instead of the constant cornball brigade he's known with.

Gorilla grodd is just too absurd and silly, as is the whole gorilla city concept. Guy is pure Silver Age in all the worst ways.

While his concept is Silver Age-y, Grodd himself is a very serious villain (in fact, that's kind of his schtick - kind of the opposite of M.O.D.O.K. in that regard) - even in Justice League where everyone is much lighter and softer. The Secret Society stuff probably pulled the 'villain team up' thing better than the Injustice Gang did, though they didn't have the benefit of Joker or Luthor's personalities.

I can kind of understand not liking the concept rather than having a problem with the actual character, though. It's the same kind of backlash Guardians Of The Galaxy got.

edited 8th Jul '15 8:23:17 PM by KnownUnknown

The thing with Grodd is he's a very silly concept but the character himself and the tone of his stories try to take him so seriously, which doesn't really work— and he's disconnected from the other Rogues, so he doesn't even get the ensemble dynamics that help lesser villains like Heat Wave or Weather Wizard. He probably would work better if he and the writers embraced how goofy he and his plans are, which probably is why I think he worked best in Batman The Brave and the Bold.

Brave and the Bold also showed how he really isn't that much of a good Flash figure— you can easily transplant him into Batman's Rogues Galleries with a few minor retouches and he really doesn't change that much, while you can feel a more personal and unique chemistry between Flash and Trickster, Captain Cold or Mirror Master.

edited 8th Jul '15 8:22:43 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

Grodd does seem more like someone Batman would face.

Isn't Grodd in the flash live action show and is actually well liked?

Him being a general DC character sometimes non-withstanding (DC does the same with with Deathstroke, for instance), Brave and the Bold did that with everybody - with very few exceptions, every villain was a Batman foe and every hero was a Batman supporting character.

edited 8th Jul '15 8:26:40 PM by KnownUnknown

Superman and Wonder Woman's rogues were still pretty much their own, which was why it was such a big in-story deal when the villains switched foes, but then, they arrived too late in the series to function otherwise.

It's mostly just evidence that they had little confidence in the show without those guest appearances. The Shaquille O'Neal one, where he even learned who Static was, just stood out as among how genuinely bad the series could get.

As for Zeta Project, the show itself was very kid friendly and featured much brighter colors and more gimmicky episodes. It had a serial plot in theory, but mostly episodic in practice. As a result it relies on a lot more stock plots (like the Evil Counterpart, the bored, rich Child Genius, the middle class Child Genius) and contrivances to ensure they evade capture.

The Batman Beyond crossover "Countdown" wasn't exactly a great episode, but Zeta and Ro as characters were used really well. Zeta also used mild but direct violence against some Jokerz gang members, which is something he rarely did in his own show. It was mostly running from others.

Those were the very few exceptions I was talking about.

Black Manta is also established as Aquaman's enemy, not Batman's. After that, that's about it. At best, the show introduced a universe where everyone shared villains and Batman was the leader in taking them down.

Maybe that was the point: a General DC show starring Batman, rather than an out-and-out Batman franchise show. Seeing Batman's actual Rogues Gallery or supporting cast was rare.

edited 8th Jul '15 8:35:40 PM by KnownUnknown

I always liked Grodd. Yes, he's a silly idea, but I feel that if I can take a grown man who dresses up like a bat to fight crime seriously (and I do), then I can take the talking gorillas seriously - or at least, seriously enough.

Maybe I just enjoyed his smug confidence, I don't know. "Alive!" was a lot of fun, at least.

I admire how Brave and the Bold mostly used more minor DC characters instead of Superman/Wonder Woman/Flash characters. As mentioned before, Bats's own supporting cast and Rogues seldom appeared outside of Joker and Harley.

The closest Brave and the Bold gave us a major DC character that was an ally were Aquaman and Green Arrow. Plastic Man, Blue Beetle, Shazam, and Booster Gold aren't exactly major characters (except possibly Shazam).

I do like it when DC/Marvel push characters into mainstream. Like what Marvel's doing with Deadpool, or what DC did to Green Arrow.

For some reason I chuckled at Grodd's evil plan: "Turn every man, woman, and child INTO AN APE!"

edited 8th Jul '15 10:31:31 PM by AHI-3000

Such a Silver Age plan. Only instead of the heroes going "You fiend!", they (and the other villians) are going "...really?"

I liked Lex's reaction to that plan.

"I wasn't going to do this for another few weeks, but..."

edited 9th Jul '15 7:25:53 AM by Etheru

That was probably the point of it, to portray a silver age villain making a silver age plot and taking it deadly seriously, and the various modern age characters react to its pointlessness.

Although to be fair, he is a gorilla and thus has different priorities.

Of course, even with that silliness, they could have made it work if he had something else to the plot, like not only was he making them all into apes, but apes who would be permanently susceptible to his Mind Control.

Grodd's plan may seem silly and harmless, until you consider a 747 full of passengers mid-fight having it's controls crushed by a pilot who's hands are now too big to work the stick. Or a packed elevator. Or anyone who's on the operating table.

Then the long term consideration of food supply to a population that's more than doubled its collective body weight and has entirely different dietary requirements.

Superficially silly, but as good a way of destabilizing world governments as any.

Sinestro: (about Lex Luthor) What's he going to do, make everyone bald?

Also, iirc turning the world into apes was Plan B or maybe C. Plan A was "subjugate the humans with Mass Hypnosis, use them and/or their technology to take over Gorilla City, yadda yadda world domination."

edited 9th Jul '15 2:08:48 PM by KnownUnknown

I think one of the crazier plans in the DCAU was Joker trying to mind rape everyone using Ace.

My favorite DCAU Joker scheme was probably that time he turned a bunch of comedy stars into supervillains with Mad Hatter-tech simply because they didn't give him an award during some open mic night.

Some of Joker's best moments are when he's not just being petty, but elaborately petty.

edited 9th Jul '15 4:04:07 PM by KnownUnknown

The best to me is his final joke, that scene is damn impactful.

To my mind, the best of Batman:TAS still holds up, and that's saying something 'cuz they were still figuring out how to do that kind of show as they were doing it. Hell, it's light years ahead of most anything else that was on the air at the time (the only notable exception being Gargoyles).

BTAS still has a number of things that stand out even now, mostly its aesthetic and unique orchestral soundtrack for every episode.

to be honest it's probably the most impressive score of any western cartoon i've ever seen.

How about that Mask of Phantasm Opening? One word to describe it?

Godly.

[[youtube:4xgDpesd428]]

edited 9th Jul '15 6:45:33 PM by AnimatedDreamer