Clone Army Idea Flaws

(Feel free to skip this first paragraph) so as some might know I've been writing up a sci-fi universe for a while now, though I've lost interest in it at points and have come back to it only to have changed various aspects. By this point I've created the third incarnation of it, using some aspects of the FTL system I created in late 2013 and early 2014, which is set in a sub-light traveled, though warping technology is used and the maximum speed travelled is 0.8c, small portion of the Orion Arm.

Anyways, as the setting is traveled with sub-light spacecraft, I began to think that if a federation was to exist in this kind of setting they'd have to think of way of being able to send reinforcements to star systems without relying on volunteers or conscription, the former not wanting to waste a minimum of 13 years fighting for some nearby star system they've barely had any contact with and the latter being a part of a policy that would only create tension within an already unstable interstellar state.

The answer I thought of was that of artificial human soldiers, named in-universe as "Doe Drones" after John/Jane Doe. Designed with neurocybernetics that program them with memories meant to train them (e.g. muscle memory on how to fire a gun, programmed phrases etc.) and with basic intelligence provided by a remote AI system, corps of Doe are made with a single custom genetic base, though the design of the base is different for each corps based upon the conditions of their environment, and with no gender, an insurance so as to not allow them to breed due to their identical genetics. The reason also why Doe Drones are used in the place of mechanical AI is due to cost effectiveness, a single robot costing thousands as an asset compared to a single cheap artificial human that can be used as cannon fodder, and due to the difficulty of reprogramming biological AI, meaning that if a Doe was captured an enemy could not easily repurpose them. Doe Drones squads are split into three fire teams which are each overseen by a Military Combatant Operator (an MCO), a minimal group of volunteer humans, who direct the individual Doe AI and can personally take control of single soldiers.

Now question time, have I covered all the bases of designing this army? What flaws or inefficient design ideas can you see with these human cannon fodder scamps? Or do you simply have questions regarding anything I perhaps haven't explained to the fullest?

Doe Drones? Why not Doeboys?

You've got you're standard Clone Degeneration issues to deal with, making a copy of a copy of a copy etc.

There's also the fact that all the clones have identical tendencies, strengths, weaknesses, and most importantly immune systems. If one clone gets so much as a cold it won't be long before every clone has one.

Finally, you might be underestimating the price of growing a human being to adulthood.

So first you want avoid cloning clones. Once you have a suitable genetic template you store it and make all clones using this template or at most from first generation copies of this template.

Secondly, do not make the entire force from a single template. Have many types of clones and mix them within units. Having variation serves a number of purposes. As said above it limits disease, but it also decreases the chance of a single weakness being exploited to defeat large numbers of clones.

Thank you for the responses so far.

Ha, I could make "Doeboys" a nickname for the soldiers but the drone part of the name is an indication that the Doe squads are commanded by a higher (both literally and in rank) intelligence.

Clone degeneration shouldn't be an issue, as clones are cloned directly from the original base, but I will keep in mind not to include "cloning of clones". I actually hadn't thought about that Belisaurius and Aoide12, concerning immune systems. The idea behind the clones corps being developed from a single base was that it was then certain that each clone created from the base would accept biocybernetics the same way and that no surprises would arise, but then none of that means anything if a single unrecognised disease infects one of them. As Aoide12 suggested I think I will mix up the corps with a bit of variation with different clone "models. Cost wise, biological AI development isn't cost free by any stretch, not everyone with some blood and some genetics knowledge can start creating life, but it still is less costly than the development of mechanical drones. One thing to note about this future is that it's past a lot of mechanical technology and is more interested in biotech, not to the extent of having living spaceships but definitely of making an inclusion of organic computing, and there is actually some stigma against digital AI compared to biological AI. It just looks better on states if they have, even if largely non sentient, biological soldiers representing them instead of mechanical ones.

edited 19th Apr '15 6:24:56 AM by NDF27

In universe, you could instill patriotism by allowing citizens to volunteer their genetic material, since it's impractical to send people over sub light speeds. Or take the genetic material from high performing individuals in the local military.

When you're naming them after John Doe you're practically already giving them a nickname. Go big or go home.

What do their reproductive systems look like? As well as their sex drives? To what extent would Westermarck kick in, and how would the public at home deal with the Mass Uncanny Valley that would necessarily come with seeing an army of Identicals?

(For that matter, any reproduction between them or a normal human would be a recordkeeping nightmare.)

That said, how would providing the air and electricity and food and water and coordination and equipment and transportation and fuel and etc. necessary to keep a clone army alive, be less expensive than providing just the electricity and 3D-printing materials necessary for an AI army?

Let us not forget the moral implications of literally breeding an entire army made just to die. People are going to be upset with that.

How do people in universe react to this?

Depends how clones are viewed and whether society has grown used to the idea of them being spare parts or fully sentient beings.

I mean we factory farm pigs who have quite a high level of intelligence. Sell the clones in the same way as being just "meat sacks" with no sapience, or keep details low level, or have them wear face-concealing helmets all the time, you could probably skirt the issue.

Also, I get a bit of a FEAR vibe from the clone thing (no bad thing, by the way) - but in that instance they were all clones controlled by a telepath.

In a more specific version of the people-farming ethical question, how would you pick the people to clone? What's going to happen to the original's family? It's pretty obvious that his/her family will freak out on seeing masses of people with their family member's face, especially if they know the clones are specifically bred to fight and likely die, but what if the original person has children and they're not quite old enough to understand that "the clones were made from daddy/mommy's DNA and so they look just like him/her. But they are NOT ACTUALLY daddy/mommy"?

You could theoretically solve it by picking orphaned/single/childless people, buuuuut that puts a whole 'nother bout of Unfortunate Implications in using "unwanted" people for clone soldiers.

I guess if it was a voluntary thing and not a "Look, an orphan! Get his DNA!" thing, it would be somewhat better, but the idea in general has a whole lot of ethical questions to work out.

edited 22nd Apr '15 12:33:08 PM by Sharysa

I think these ethical issues means a whole lot of red tape to go through. Suppose the idea of cloning becomes a hot button topic? The people in charge of overseeing the army (which i think is the Government in this case) would likely be Polarised on the issue, meaning that there might be several laws in place to prevent them from being made or being used and treated as slaves, there would also be laws in place to legalism them as slaves in all but name, but the conflict would make it a headache for anyone aspiring to make a clone army as there might a bunch a paperwork involved as a result.

tl;dr. It is likely that a clone army would become logisticaly impractical.

edited 20th Apr '15 11:02:50 PM by MorningStar1337

Here is another thing, who are the prime choices for cloning? You want your army to be effective right? So who would you choose for genetic templates?

I'd want this guy.

Just don't let them face Chuck Norris clones in battle.

edited 22nd Apr '15 3:02:54 PM by Belisaurius

A clone army has a huge Weakness: No genetic diversity.

• A clone species isn't new, several lizards and invertebrates reproduce asexually. But they are vulnerable to changes in the environment.

• Your clone army would face atomic, chemical and biological threats. And only have the same DNA. All it takes is a parasite or virus to fell large swaths of clones. That's before genetic manipulation. If the enemy jucies up a virus, bacteria or a parasite the clones would be borked.

• Sure people can aclimate, but that's not adaptation. Adaptation is at the genetic level and is passed on to future generations.

• Sure new genes could be inserted into the clones. But do it to each clone and it's time consuming and expensive. You'd be better off using batches of clones. Still expensive, but less expensive than losing an entire army to a virus.

Tl;dr - in the poker game of life, a clone army is doomed to play the same hand over and over. TANSTAAFL.

Not if we use Segata Sanshiro!

edited 24th Apr '15 11:25:19 AM by EchoingSilence

I'd just use a virus of pure Nintendium...

Take the cast of The Expendables and clones them. Now you have The Expendables!

Joking aside, If Genetic Memory works, make clones of you're most elite soldiers. An army of prediversified Green Beret clone Troopers.

edited 16th Aug '15 12:50:31 PM by WillDeRegio

The presumes Genetic Memory works reliability or at all. What about clones that don't get the memories?

If they all get the same memories, then they are all easy to beat since they use the same strategy.

Make a diverse set of clones with a wide array of tactics. And some kind of telepathy. When they die, their profitable memories are added to the pool of memories, learn from their mistakes.

So... an army of PSmiths?

Does this need to be a thread specifically dedicated to listing flaws, or can it also be a place to suggest possible workarounds? Because in an original fic of mine still in the works, I've been playing with and zig-zagging the trope of a clone army in several ways.

There are so many flaws to Clone Army:

• Lack of Diversity: as a previous commenter pointed out, they are all the same and are thus victim to all weakness of being the same (similar mindset leading to predictable tactics, all physical characteristics meaning the same weakness and flaws, etc).
• The Triangle of Doom: The production of clones would need time, cost and quality. If you need a big army right away and have shit loads of money, you won't have the perfect soldier to fight in it. If you want great soldiers and all the money needed to make them, you will waste a lot of time building such a powerful army. If you want the best men in a short time, you are wasting a lot of money. There is no possible way to meet such demands for an army without wasting all the resources in some way. Speaking of . . .
• Resources: Clone army require a lot of resources in order for them to exist and fight. Even in fantasy worlds, armies need the necessary fighting and fire power to take on the challenge. And the materials for creating the clones are probably not cheap.

A list of possible flaws:

1). Aforementioned genetic diversity issues and weakness to biological weapons.

2). If you are giving them limited intelligence, you've pretty much crippled the biggest advantage of using human soldiers, their mental adaptability. You risk creating an army of "dummies" both in the sense that they have limited intelligence and that each one is just a dummy terminal for a singular intelligence elsewhere. If the enemies discover one trick that can reliably beat the clones (such as Dressing as the Enemy, hiding inside a box, placing explosives along the soldier's routes, etc) then they can exploit this for all it's worth. You're giving your troops all a case of Artificial Stupidity in that they only know what you program them to know and if you limit their cognitive ability they may never be able to improve by learning from experience.

3). Is it really cheaper to create a bunch of organic clones soldiers, or just use something like little flying drones that can shoot at people from the air? We pretty much have those right now. Granted, you could easily mix it up with a mechanized army of little tank robots or airborn drones, with the clones accompanying them to provide assistance. Like say... using their hands to open doors, perform repairs on the robots, etc.

4). If the clones are all being controlled by a remote AI or command center, they could be very vulnerable to someone disabling the command unit. Either by blowing it up (which turns them into a Keystone Army) or by jamming the signal used to communicate with them. In addition, the level of control placed on the clones has drawbacks. If you're sending high-bandwidth signals which basically has the AI contolling them like meat-puppets, then any successful jamming signal will shut them down on the spot. That also requires you to have a proportionally larger mainframe back at base to control them which makes it easier to destroy and harder to replace. If you are simply barking verbal orders at them and they robotically obey your commands as they were programmed, the enemy might be able to exploit this by jamming your signal and feeding them orders in your voice using stolen command codes (or something). Not letting the soldiers think independently in the field slows down their reaction time and makes them vulnerable.

5). Dealing with civilians. Superweapons can crush armies but it takes soldiers to hold the land. Really, if you're sending these guys to other solar systems you already have spaceships which means you can bombard the enemy from orbit. Killing the enemy should not be an issue here. Your army could well be sent into urban combat areas and they would need a whole bunch of skills to fight the enemy while not killing civilians in the crossfire. They need to tell friend from foe, and it would probably help if your clones didn't fall right into the Uncanny Valley.

6). Clones are human, whether you like it or not. You took their DNA from a human, you grew them to look like a human, they are carrying tools like a human. These clones are human. The problem is that trying to make a remote controlled army of biomachines means that you're making incomplete humans. Growing a clone body and sticking a bunch of electrodes and wiring into their brain is really no different than taking a newborn child and lobotomizing it before programming it to become a redshirt soldier destined to die so that 'more important' people won't have to. Even if you can justify the ethics to people who deal in that stuff, if an average civilian looks at your clone soldiers walking past and your Doe Boys are all staring blankly at things with an emotionless robotic gaze, barely responding or caring if they have holes blown in them, and happily killing themselves once they get a broken leg because "It's cheaper to get a new one than to fix it." then the civilians will likely freak the fuck out. You could get rumors that you're brainwashing political prisoners to turn them into Doe Boys, or drugging people or running a cult of some kind. These clones are human, and if you don't treat them like human... and they don't treat themselves as human... then it's all just dehumanizing.

7). The Chobits Effect. I say "The Chobits Effect" because in the anime/manga "Chobits", it starts off with the protagonist walking down an alleyway and finding what looks like a dead girl's naked body laying in a dumpster. He freaks out for a second before seeing that she has the telltale robot antenni on her head which means she's a Persocom (android) and promptly calms down before deciding to drag her inert body home to see if he can fix her.

That is kinda freaky when you think about it since if you've got "Expendable" clones in this setting who look and act basically human, there is the chance that people will get desensitized to human death. If you commit a murder, why not stick a tattoo (or whatever) on the body so everyone thinks it's just another clone that can be safely dumped out with the trash. Or, someone dresses like a clone and just walks into your base to start causing havok. Then... if clone technology exists, you just know somebody is going to start making porn with it. That can go badly very quickly.

Ways around this (or justifications for the clone army).

1). One justification for a clone army is that they require less maintenance. Humans can survive quite well on a wide variety of foods (I mean, there are people who have survived for days on nothing but Taco Bell and lived to talk about it!). Meanwhile, robots require specific fuels or have heavy batteries with a short battery life. Robots also need maintenance while humans can simply maintain themselves. Essentially, robots can be specialized killing machines but lack the programming or skills to maintain themselves while clones could be great at maintaining themselves or just surviving while they might not be as good as robots.

2). Preventing disease from striking the clones could be prevented by having a wide genetic pool along with regular sanitation and protective gear. Instead of cloning the whole army from one guy, have at least a dozen or more genetic templated being used even within single squads. Or something like in Team Fortress 2 where each 'donor' was chosen for their proficiency in one specific area, such as being a scout, a sniper, various infantry grunts who can take to the field, along with medics and engineers to keep the other clones healthy and maintain their equipment. Even add some 'spies' or 'pyros' to the mix who's primary goals are to think outside the box and either mess with the enemy or prevent the enemy from exploiting weaknesses in your own army.

3). DO NOT USE HUMAN WAVE TACTICS! If you're sending these clones into space, you've already got the power to bombard your enemy from orbit in most cases. It also shouldn't be that hard to whip up some cheap tactical drones to take out fortifications that are too risky for the clones. Sure, you may consider your clones more expendable than real soldiers... but hopefully you something even more expendable than them... or at least don't waste your stuff on inefficient tactics.

4). Recruit real soldiers. Make sure you get a steady influx of real soldiers who know the risks and are ready to fight and die for what they believe in. Scratch that, who will make the enemy die for what they believe in. The clones should act as a force multiplier to increase your numbers and better help your 'real' troops accomplish their goals. The clones are expendable, but you've got enough real dudes in there that the military higher ups can't just discard them casually and need some kind of safety standards. The real soldiers fight and are generally a higher rank than the clones are, providing them with experience and individual thought that the clones might be lacking. This could also tie in with how the military gets it's donors... if a soldier is skilled enough they can become a donor to create clone troops like themselves.

The real problem with clone soldiers is that there's a small chance of them turning on your magic space wizards.