Why I think most Gender Bender stories fail to use this trope.

Disclaimer the following is just my opinion.

This is one of the most popular tropes around to the point an entire genre was made around it, not to mention the many variants of the trope as we even have a whole section dedicated to them.

Not to imply all stories that use it are bad, but many of them are good despite this trope and not thanks to it. I think most stories fail to use this trope effectively for a very simple reason: We never get to meet the character before the change.

Ever noticed that in most of this stories the main character gets changed almost the instant we meet him? As if his life before it wasn't important? Almost always it happens with little to none explanation. That on itself isn't bad (some stories are designed to be like that), but it gives all of these kind of stories a big problem: They have to rely on stereotypes or "telling instead showing" to be interesting due to the fact that the character is plain and boring without the gender bending;Comedies being the only successful examples . In other words often the main character is just an excuse for a Wish-Fulfillment fantasy rather than an a believable person.

Sure Joe keeps telling us how becoming Jo Ann ruined/improved his/her life and we might even get some flashbacks. But it feels void in the end because we never had time to connect to him as a character before, for us the audience, to actually understand and care about what has changed, what has been lost and what has been gained. Maybe If we had seen Joe spending quality time with his heterosexual girlfriend we would feel sadness when he loses her. Instead we feel indifference when we just take Joe's word for it.

Imagine if someone wrote a story about this trope happening to a friend or relative of yours or even yourself. It would be meaningful to you, as you would know the consequences of this change in your life or your friend's.

I think investing in the character before "the magic" and develop your main character is worth the effort and is the key to use this trope more effectively. If the character wasn't interesting before this trope, this change won't do it magically,by itself, either.

Hope it helps.

edited 8th Jan '15 11:15:27 PM by RPGLegend

I'd hardly call it "one of the most popular tropes", especially seeing as it's mostly a fanfiction thing to use it as more than a one-off event, much less the premise of an entire work. It's a very niche trope.

I also suspect that the reason most stories "fail" to use it is that the audience for it is either looking for goofy comedy or some kind of wish fulfillment. A serious story about a person being forcibly changed into the opposite sex would actually involve some serious psychological issues, and would probably be kind of depressing.

edited 9th Jan '15 7:48:53 AM by Bloodsquirrel

I actually disagree on the idea that it isn't popular. Just look at this:

Gender-Blending Tropes

A lot of sub tropes and many works that use it.

To clarify my use of the word "fail" was meant to be colloquial, and eye catching not a serious statement.I do have to mention though that a work could treat this seriously and still b a Wish-Fulfillment story. My criticism is regarding giving meaning to the change, rather than the intent of the author.

edited 9th Jan '15 8:04:56 AM by RPGLegend

I think Bloodsquirell's in the right track. I get the sense that a serious story about, say, a man being forcibly changed into a woman would be psychological horror (you know, seeing as it essentially equates a magical version of castration) that'd annihilate the man's mind, rather than a goofy comedy.

However I feel you both might have misunderstood my intention. I have seen this trope played ,seriously, as a good thing as often as negatively.

I am not talking about being serious or not, nor wheter it is good or not.That's for each author to decide. My suggestion is to show the life of the character before the change. This is something I feel both serious and comedic examples lack.

edited 9th Jan '15 11:08:41 AM by RPGLegend

How is being turned into a woman anywhere near castration? You won't lose your genitals, they just change shape. You will still be able to have sex and feel aroused and reproduce.

Women are not lacking something men have, they just have it differently shaped. They are not men who lack a penis.

edited 9th Jan '15 6:24:42 PM by Antiteilchen

The psychological effect would be comparable to castration. I don't really think a human being can have his sex changed against his will and not end up horribly traumatized. Gender tends to be a very core part of a person's personality, not to mention the saturn-sized issue of hormones and their effect. Re-wiring all of those hormonal traits against a person's will would lay havoc to someone's mind.

I only used man-to-female because it seems to be the most common example, but if the process happened backwards (female to male) the psychological damage would be the same.

Truth to be told, I just find it a deeply disturbing concept.

I feel you, I was just makig an aside comment. Conceptually-wise, you are right.

I personally don't find it that disturbing a concept at all. The hormonal changes might be something to get used to but I can't see it being that much of a big deal for me. I already went through puperty without much problems after all. Been there, done that.

You're still human after all. It's not like getting turned into a cockroach.

It just doesn't sit right with me. It may be because most gender-bending stories have it be a very sudden and swift affair, which gives it a more brutal feeling.

But regardless, I suppose we'll never find out the true psychological damage of this trope. A riddle for the ages, perhaps.

The idea of switching somebody's gender, during this wave of transgender awareness, can actually appeal to a lot of audiences and create plenty of opportunities for Body Horror, Psychological Horror, and Tragic themes in stories.

Rather than gradual transition some Applied Phlebotinum causes an instantaneous change, which could be weaponized by villains.

Then again playing with Tertiary Sexual Characteristics and gender stereotypes is very very hard unless the readers know your character well, and switching them from one to the other actually creates a subtle difference.

Besides being toxified by horomones and eventually dying?

On that note, how can an instantaneous gender switch kill somebody?

What if I told you I literally just found an example? 'Cause seeing one character's pre-change life is one part of Predestination. (Any more would be major spoilers.)

edited 9th Jan '15 10:08:47 PM by AwSamWeston

-adds Predestination to Medialist-

The effect would be less like castration and more like gender dysphoria, except much worse because their existing identity has actually been disrupted.

''I actually disagree on the idea that it isn't popular. Just look at this: Gender Blending Tropes''

I don't see how any of those constitute actual gender-swap stories being mainstream. Sweet Polly Oliver isn't dealing with the same kind of things that a story about someone having their gender forcibly swapped is.

I can't really think of a single mainstream example of such a work. The closest I can come is Ranma 1/2, which is, well, only half way there.

edited 9th Jan '15 10:28:33 PM by Bloodsquirrel

I understand the OP's idea and I actually agree, I just don't understand the point of the thread itself. Like, what's the question? Where's the writer's block? I mean, I'd be down for swapping possible ways of depicting a Gender Bender scenario in this way but you didn't actually ask a question or anything.

One story I'm suddenly interested in writing could be about a man who is exposed to some heavy fae magics that transform him into a Hermaphrodite against his will and would explore how that change affects xir life. It won't be tragic because xe'll eventually embrace xir new life, but it'll be painful to watch his old life end. And I wouldn't treat it like a joke because it wouldn't feel funny if it happened to someone IRL. Another intriguing idea I just had is to include a secondary character who experiences the same transformation but isn't traumatized by it because xe was a trans-woman and is more comfortable with the change.

Yeah on that note, I feel it'd benefit the Writer's Block if we turned this on a thread for discussion about Gender Bending in writing and its rammifications. Seems like a discussion worth having.

In this story, an unattractive guy constantly denounced my girls for his offputting cringy personality begins to get sick of never finding the girl of his dreams, and then after much consideration, decides to become his own dream girl. He finds a Genie in a Lamp and becomes the girl of his dreams, attractive, alluring, glamorous and fair. However, his personality remains the same. He meets another cringy boy who makes the same advances towards him, and he, carrying a bitter hypocritical disgust to the manchild's advances, puts him down in every way he knows how.

However, he grows a conscience, seeing a sliver of his previous self in the cringy boy and does what he wished his own dream girl would do: treat him nicely. The other boy appreciates it very well, and they condone in activities they both enjoy: online gaming, trading cards, and even exchanging porn.

Things seem to be working out well, as he redeems himself by helping others like him...until he begins to see somebody trailing his shadow. He begins to notice the boy he helped fell in love with him, and misguidedly thought that they were in a relationship. He thinks about the times he stalked girls and the times he snuck into their house, and suddenly the horror of what he did, and what will happen to him dawns.

The effect would be less like castration and more like gender dysphoria, except much worse because their existing identity has actually been disrupted.

Indeed. That is also why it wouldn't bother me much. I'm not really identifying as a man anyway. That won't affect my identity. As someone who took Gender Studies at University it'd be a golden opportunity for research.

@squirrel

Popular=/= "mainstream"

No, that's just silly.

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/mainstream

Personal definitions are a hindrance to communication and an ineffective debate tactic.

A lot of my characters have taken on queer qualities lately. Most of my human characters are cisgender bisexuals, the monsters are all Transsexual heterosexuals, and the faeries are pansexual Hermaphrodites. I've also started using a lot of gender-neutral pronouns ("xe" and "xir") for the monsters and faeries; I think this is actually very helpful because now I'm not saying "he" or "she" when I'm talking about someone who's neither a "he" nor a "she" (at least, not in the strictest senses).

One problem I'm having is whether a hetero she-monster (so, physically male but mentally and spiritually female) could fall for a he-monster (physically female but essentially male) based on the he-monster's body. Is she still "hetero" then?

edited 10th Jan '15 6:57:32 AM by nekomoon14

@Squirrel

Letting your rudeness aside. You do know a thesaurus only looks for the closest similar word right? Flying is marked as a synonim of floating and they aren't the same, exactly. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/fly?s=t

In this case the difference between popular and mainstream is in the "acceptance" and "anonimity". Subtle I know but, important.

Here are my sources:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mainstream http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/popular

For example, while in real life Twilight is both mainstream and popular. On the internet it is popular, but liking it , isn't mainstream. With hating it being the norm.ç

there are also differences when you introduce the word "niche". That work isn't mainstream, but inside it's "niche", it is popular.

Finally according to the oxford dictionary the difference is that "mainstream" has to be the dominant idea for a whole group, whole popular can apply to only a section of that dominant group.

Example: Mustard tacos are popular among my friends, But I wish they were mainstream."

edited 10th Jan '15 10:41:08 AM by RPGLegend

It shouldn't even be called "Gender bender" since it's the sex changing, not the gender.

If a man transforms physically into a female body, they're not gonna just say "oh i'm a woman now" are they? they'll still have a male gender identity. And thus still be male.

This site really should change the name to like "sex swapper" or something.

"If a man transforms physically into a female body, they're not gonna just say "oh i'm a woman now" are they? they'll still have a male gender identity. And thus still be male."

Well, not necessarily; even leaving aside people who are already genderfluid, I do think that there are those for whom gender is either not or only minimally a part of their identity. Such people may well, after a period of adjustment that I imagine may vary significantly from person to person, feel that they are a woman by virtue of having a female body, and be content with that.

That said, at a guess, I imagine that you'd probably be right in most cases.

[edit] Ah, I take it that quoteblocks are not yet working in the new forum; fair enough.

[edit 2] And either indenting is similarly not working, or I was using it incorrectly. Ah well, the above should hopefully be sufficiently clear as a quote.

edited 10th Jan '15 1:36:27 PM by ArsThaumaturgis

Well aside from most of the examples in the trope above illustrating the men playing with their new breasts due to their previous fascination with the female body, no. If their personality requires they remain male then that would be when the switch over theory would begin.

I've never seen a gay man get hit by a Sexray and become a woman in a story yet. I wonder what their reaction would be.

Seems you were correct about the quoteblox.

edited 10th Jan '15 10:13:23 PM by Aespai

"Letting your rudeness aside."

I'm not being rude. I'm pointing out that you're derailing a discussion by insisting on using words incorrectly. Which, itself, is actually really rude.

"Here are my sources:"

From your own definition of popular: "Common among the general public; generally accepted."

Your sources aren't supporting the distinction you want to draw.

"Finally according to the oxford dictionary the difference is that "mainstream" has to be the dominant idea for a whole group, whole popular can apply to only a section of that dominant group."

You're getting lost in the weeds. You can always say that something is "popular" or "mainstream" for a subsection of a group without it being so for the whole. You definitions even list "mainstream Jazz", which is only a section of the larger group of "music". If you insist that you can call anything popular "because it's popular for someone" then the word becomes meaningless. And the idea that something as to be THE dominant idea for a whole group to be mainstream is just flat wrong- comedies and action movies are both mainstream.

None of this quibbling is going to change the fact that your premise is wrong- gender bending as a genre is not popular enough to have generated any published examples. It's a "dark corners of the web" thing, which is the primary explanation of it's current state.

"It shouldn't even be called "Gender bender" since it's the sex changing, not the gender."

That definition of "gender" is not widely agreed upon. It's darling of the social justice circles, but most people don't use it that way and dictionaries don't define it that way.