Is the concept of Mary Sue Sexist?

Batman is a mary sue.

No he isn't. Because he's not perfect. He screws his personal relationships in a constant basis. He can't achieve actual happiness. His war on crime is actually a Sissyphean task. Despite all his competence, all he can do is keeping the tide at bay, never actually subduing it for good. And it took him devoting his whole life, the sum of all his efforts and the compromise of everything else he might have been to achieve just that much. While a Gary Stu would have done it effortlessly.

Mary Sue is not the same as The Ace.

Which Batman are we even talking about? And which definition of Mary Sue?

No Batman I can remember now is a Mary Sue.

Tim Burton's? He barely did anything well in Batman Returns.

Joel Schumacher's? The guy who kept stupidly inhaling Poison Ivy's dust even after seeing what it could do.

The Modern Comics'? Batjerk, who keeps alienating everyone around him.

DCAU's? Not as bad as Batjerk, but eventually ends up the embittered loner who isolated himself from everyone in Batman Beyond.

Adam West's? Memes aside, this is the guy who was put in a death trap every episode. Sole reason why he survived was all the villains had Bond Villain Stupidity.

The Batman's? A relative green newbie for most of the show.

Beware the Batman's? Competent enough, and actually better at relationships than most versions, but still no Batgod level.

Brave and The Bold's? Uhhh... okay... we might have a winner here...

I'm only going to say this on the subject: from a certain point of view, anything and everything can be sexist, as sexism is inherently subjective.

Lampshade Hanging: It's a lifestyle.

Well, I did specify Frank Miller...

Also, stuff like "Modern Batman" is far too broad. There have been many different writers of Batman over the past several decades, and all of them have their own interpretations of him and his cast. As Neil Gaiman said, "You could say that any Batman fan writing a Batman comic is writing fan fiction." It only follows that at least some of them would let their love for the character influence their writing to a degree that it would be harmful.

Also, Jerk Sue is a thing...

Oh God! Natural light!

The Jerk Sue gets away with being a Jerk. In most of his incarnations, Batman has no friends as a result of his jerkassery. Bruce Wayne is much better adjusted though.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

Maybe, but I'm pretty sure there have been works where Batman is presented as being 100% right for being a jerk (and not necessarily in a Properly Paranoid sort of way).

Oh God! Natural light!

I do think the term Mary Sue is a very over used term. Personally I define a Mary Sue as a character who's addition reduces the amount conflict in the story. In my view conflict should only ever be reduced by characters already in the story, an OC added by a fan fic is fine if they either add new conflict or in solving an existing conflict create a new one.

I think the reason female characters are called out as Mary Sue's is that most protagonists are male, so most of the time Gary Stu's will wear the skin of canon characters.

Harry Potter, the one who is generally an average to poor student, exposed the magic world to muggles and wrecked his friend's father's car? The one who people chastise for hearing voices no one else does and has little self confidence in anything besides broom flying despite beings something of a cult figure?

Yeah, he's got a freak (sort of)immunity to the killing curse but he also has a crippling weakness to black dogs that leads to him repeatedly passing out. I haven't read all the books but something must have really changed for him to be a Mary Sue.

Wait, Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality gets accused of Mary Sue frequently. So I do't think it is a male thing.

Captain Kirk gets frequent accusations of being a Mary Sue, especially from the reboot movie and from the William Shatner novels. Captain Sisko gets called an Anti-Sue.

I guess the concept is sexist only in that the popular image of a Mary Sue is that of a multicolor haired girl whom everyone loves, but I think that has as much to do with the Trope Namer. To me, the concept of a Mary Sue was always best illustrated by a little kid playing with action figures and using their hand to represent the "strongest" character. The prestablished setting being used as a plaything to make the uncreative "original" character look good. You know, like Super Smash Bros. (except the action figure can actually beat the god hand there)

I will agree that the term is overused. Especially since Self-Insert and Creator's Pet, are not necessarily Mary Sues (granted they are probably the two most common types). Thanos of Titan and Adam Warlock, while obvious creators pets in that their amount of usage and in story success is far higher than that of more popular characters and doesn't relent even when the reader base complains, many people do get away with mocking or outright disdaining Adam Warlock and he has gotten his ass handed to in spectacular fashion while Thanos, never allowed to truly lose to anyone else, is still a self defeating bastard that nobody likes-his pet status being the insistence of "self defeating", that it never sticks and the fact the books keep trying to play him off as sympathetic despite having virtually no redeeming qualities.

As for self inserts, they just as often lend themselves to Self-Deprecation or annoying but otherwise one note Author Filibusters.

edited 15th Jan '15 10:01:58 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

Well, in book five his fuck-ups (combined with those of some others) result in someone dying. So he makes a mistake that has serious consequences. That don't qualify for Sue.

edited 16th Jan '15 6:05:21 PM by Pannic

Harry Potter has quite a few of the typical Sue traits. He's wealthy, good looking, good at sports, famous, intelligent and talented at magic.

Sure, he'd trade every knut he owns to have his parents or Sirius back, his good looks are undermined by his childhood leaving him a scrawny little shit, he's good at sports but doesn't really want to become a Quidditch Pro, his fame backfires on him more often than not, his intelligence is never really applied because Harry has a terrible environment around him and all that talent at magic means shit in front of Voldemort who not only has the same if not more talent than Harry does plus something like fifty or sixty years of experience and accumulated knowledge on him.

There's also the fact that the Dursleys are how a lot of kids see their perfectly normal, non-abusive parents as. Ridiculous though it sounds.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

I said it before: The so called Sue traits are a pretty useless indicator. Question is: Do other characters bow to Harry's will? No, they don't quite the opposite in fact. Snape never stops hating him, he and Draco will never be friends, he can't change the mind of the wizard world with a few chosen words, and while his fame brings him a lot of admiration, it brings him also a lot of enemies. Does the plot bow to Harry's wishes? No. There are some shades of it in the first book when he is suddenly the youngest quidditch played in a century and gets the house cup at the end of the book. But he doesn't get the quidditch cup, and the last minute house points mostly make up for what he lost beforehand. And during the book series Harry looses everyone who is important to him. If Canon Harry were a Gary Stu, Sirius wouldn't die, he would come to the Dursleys, hex them and then do a lot of cool stuff with Harry. Harry wouldn't go to the ministry in the first place because he would be way too smart to fall for the trap.

Actually, the fact that Draco,Snape and the Dursleys (You think they arent abusive? WTF!) hate him actually COULD be a Sue-ish trait. That is, his detractor are evil,mean,abusive and smell funny,HOWEVER Harry also dodges this accusation for one simple reason: His detractors arent without their redeeming traits (Yes, even Draco and the Dursleys) and in the case of Snape reveal themselves to be good people after all.

Discord: Waido X 255#1372 If you cant contact me on TV Tropes do it here.

Being a Mary Sue isn't a collection of traits. It's about the attitude. One of my friends summed up the attitude as, essentially, "Hey! Look at me!"

Mostly, it's about the attitude of the rest of the world towards the Sue. The Sue doesn't even really need to be loved by everyone, as long as those who hate him/her still devote their every moment onscreen to him/her, whether to try and hindrance and torture the poor Sue (this applies a lot to Purity Sues) or merely hate the Sue if they know they can't go against him/her, and whenever they do, they'll invariably be humbled themselves instead (Black Hole Sues get this a lot). The Sue might even be incompetent from an objective viewpoint (Anti-Sue), but he/she still will qualify if eveyone around acts as if he/she were, or were about to suddenly show that potential that will overshadow everyone.

The Sue doesn't really need to boast either ("Awwww! How modest and humble he/she is!") as long as others still fixate on him/her regardless. Of course, he/she will always show off in the end even if it was unintended on their part.

edited 20th Jan '15 5:52:15 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

Hm...I don't think the OCs I've created for my Kingdom Hearts fic are Sues, then. Of course, Villain Sues are rather difficult to do accidentally.

edited 20th Jan '15 5:53:33 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!

I'm referring to the author's attitude, by the way. Not the character's (or the characters').

Of course the Sue traits are worthless as an indicator, but they are traits that a Mary Sue often possesses nonetheless.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

Has anyone mentioned Kvothe yet? That guy is the very definition of a Sue. He is good at everything, with hardly any training in some cases, all women lust after him, all worthy people eventually come to love him, he is the only one to whom a tribe of natives give their secret knowledge, although he really isn't that trustworthy ... did I forget something?

I don't think someone could get away with writing a female character in original fiction who is like that. And that is sexist.

However, I don't see an inherent problem in the definition of "character who is better and more popular than anyone else in the universe, and annoying because of it". That is legitimate criticism.

What's that from?

Oh God! Natural light!

Kvothe? I'm not sure what the English title is, something like "The wise man's fear", or the "Kingkiller" series?

I tend to view a Sue as a walking personification of a Deus Ex Machina as well: they tend to have skills as the plot demands, are always Over 9000 in their ability power, they need not expend effort and are supposed to garner sympathy regadless of their decisions.

Additionally, even if they're down and out, they seem almost "dignified" in their suffering. I hesitate to use the word, but "emo" seems to cover it.

That's just the few I've seen.

However, they don't ALWAYS have these traits, nor all at once. And there are some twists: Geralt in the Witcher is, arguably, a Sue from some perspectives: he is amazingly attractive to women, seems able to solve most issues, is practically unbeatable in combat and the plots always seem to drag him in in some way.

Of course this is often subverted: he had to go through genetic engineering, he is infertile (Which could be seen as a plus?) and only got his combat prowess through several years of intense training. He isn't unbeatable and the narratives go to pains to show how much prep he has to go through before taking on even basic monsters one on one.

He is a character who intentionally spreads a "Mary Sue" legend to help his mythos and sales pitch as a monster slayer. And he isn't inherantly popular either, but the world he inhabits is crapsack to put it mildly.

Also, the author killed him off in a fairly... shitty way. Thank god for the games.

With a Sue, you never feel any investment in any threat, either - they are never truly, at risk of anything more than some cool scare(tm) or a temporarily broken heart.

@Gowan. They meant which SERIES (Caps are for emphasis. I seriously want a Bold or Italics button on this forum) is he from and I would appreciate it if you told us more about the context he lives in.

Discord: Waido X 255#1372 If you cant contact me on TV Tropes do it here.

''series'' = series

'''series''' = series

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

The concept of Mary Sue is not sexist, it's just that when most peeple think about female main characters from fanfics they think Ebony Darkness Dementia Raven Way and Jenna Silverblade.

You gotta start somewhere.