An Atheist's Interpretations of Heaven and Hell

I am trying to write a heaven that would appeal to non-religious readers. Currently using the traditional christian heaven seems horrendous because there would be no conflict, leading to a sense of meaninglessness and to other readers, horror.

Hell is pretty straightforward, but also needed input from others about what hell should be.

So I came here to gather info. What do you want out of heaven? What do you want out of Hell?

What would you want to see, experience or have in heaven, that would make it paradise for you?

What would you want Hell to truly be? Who and what would it be filled with, and why?

edited 7th Jan '15 9:55:34 PM by Aespai

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I think you're misunderstanding atheism. The main point atheists have is not "I don't like God." The main point of atheism is that "God doesn't exist." Now for some people, part of that conclusion might be because ideas of God are too obscure or complex or shifts things like "destiny" and "fate" and "purpose" away from themselves or something like that. But there are other atheists who say that "there isn't any/enough evidence to show that a deity exists" (I'm one of them).

Since heaven and hell and other alternatives rely on a god existing (and only in some religions, I might add), the question of "how would an atheist imagine heaven/hell?" becomes irrelevant.

I know this doesn't directly answer your question, but it's something to keep in mind when writing your story.

Award-winning screenwriter. Directed some movies. Trying to earn a Creator page. I do feedback here.

It's not a matter of what one wants in Heaven or Hell, it's the fact that neither exist and what's generally taken to be "in" them is largely dependent on wishful thinking on behalf of those who would control others and those who desperately want them to exist.

Atheists don't have a heaven or hell, but they can and do deem certain real life locations and/or situations to be "heaven" or "hell" (or certainly "heavenly" or "hellish") because common memes are common.

If I said to you, "man, last night's camp out was pure heaven," I wouldn't need to wax lyrical about what I enjoyed about it in order for you to get the general idea that I was completely happy and contented with my lot.

OK, it wouldn't convey any real information about it - what it was actually like, what I did etc - but then my idea of a "heavenly" camp out could well be the listener's idea of a "hellish" period away from all the mod cons, so it's actually better at conveying that I had a good time than any description of the place and events.

Echoing the answer that you don't seem to understand atheism. Yes, I suppose you could say I don't like the concept of the Capital G Abrahamic god, because I find the idea of any being, no matter how wise or intelligent or loving, having and exercising that much power to be morally repugnant. As I've often said, if God actually existed I would consider it my moral duty to oppose such a deity because the mere existence of an omnipotent being holds so much potential for abuse of power as to boggle the mind. Even an entity of perfect righteousness could not be trusted to exercise such power in a fair way. No one and nothing ever could.

But note the "if God actually existed". I do not believe that, perhaps because the sheer horror of such a being, but also because there is no case to be made for their existence anyways. Even if they did exist, it would be within their power to do so in such a way we could never detect them. They are the ultimate irrelevancy as such.

As an atheist, I have no "interpretation" of heaven, because I do not believe such a thing exists. Or hell, or even an afterlife for that matter. I have used the phrase "completely changed my conception of hell" several times in describing one particular set of conditions, not because I believe in it but because it makes for useful shorthand to others in describing how utterly miserable they were.

edited 7th Jan '15 6:47:07 PM by Night

Nous restons ici.

Actually some atheist do believe in heaven and hell. Some branches of buddism come to mind.

Forgiveness is beyond justice, faith is superior than hope, redemption is better than perfection and love is greater than them all.

Afterthought to my earlier post: Now, if you're asking "what's the ideal afterlife of an atheist?" that's a whole different question, and one that I can sort of answer — at least for my own philosophy.

My ideal "afterlife" is to be remembered for doing something great — whether it's making a work of art or doing a good deed (or a series of them) or just being an overall decent human being who people look to for inspiration. Of course, then the "hell" alternative would be if I'm villainized for the rest of history for similar reasons. And this also plays into my perception of "immortality" — that as long as a person is remembered, they live on through what they did in their life even after they die.

Of course keep in mind that everyone has different goals, values, and viewpoints. My own preferences aren't universal to what an atheist thinks of life, death, or what happens after death.

And one final quibble: If an atheist isn't sure about what happens after death, that's not atheism — they're "agnostic." There is a difference.

Buddhism is an interesting case because while there's nothing about gods or fate or anything like that, there is still a little mysticism. The whole "reincarnation" thing comes to mind. But I'm not nearly qualified to have a deep conversation about Buddhism (the "try to reach enlightenment" and "reincarnation" stuff is the extent of what I know), so I'll leave it at that.

edited 7th Jan '15 7:42:43 PM by AwSamWeston

Award-winning screenwriter. Directed some movies. Trying to earn a Creator page. I do feedback here.

Most atheists only consider modern science to be a valid source of information but a few will at least leave their minds open to the possibility of facts that contemporary science may not have uncovered as of yet, just with a very healthy abundance of skepticism. Personally, I'm a henotheist, so my hypotheses about what happens after death are suspect

I believe that after we die, our minds MAY continue on as ghosts, which MAY reincarnate by hijacking the bodies of infants or possessing other mindless bodies; I think gods can also escort ghosts to various areas of the astral plane, some of which might be termed heavenly or hellish. I believe when I die, I will most likely be taken to a “hellish heaven” where there's no sun and everyone is either an unwilling slave or an eager servant to their gods, depending on their perspective more than their duties. I don't believe anything is eternal or infinite except the void, so there would most likely come a time when we are required to leave these afterlife destinations. I have never had any experiences that confirm these hypotheses but they comfort me and that's all I really require of them at this point. Many atheists are more concerned with facts than with the usefulness of fictions; fictions have a purpose, even in modern times, they simply shouldn't be imposed on other people.

Level 3 Social Justice Necromancer. Chaotic Good.

Let me rephrase this.

What is your ideal heaven, and your ideal hell?

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A meaningless question if you mean in terms of an everlasting existence after death.

I don't know where you're coming from with this. Are you one of those who is so convinced that "God is Self Evident" that you think atheists "secretly do believe in God but pretend not to" or some such?

Not taking the piss or being confrontational, just asking as I genuinely don't get why you would ask atheists what their ideal versions of heaven and hell are.

edited 7th Jan '15 10:25:25 PM by Wolf1066

Okay. So, I'm a worthless, stupid believer - but since this is on Writer's Block and not on the Covens or the Off-Topic and is hashing out ideas for writing, I think I may have a possible solution, since I run into similar worries in my own writing.

I might not be who you are looking for in regards to advice, but I like to make my own work accessible to everyone and enjoy making some of my spiritual entities / places / planes and such ambigious, as in, I typically pull a Maybe Magic, Maybe Mundane just so that anyone who might shy away from the symbolism I like and the questions I ask can "feel safe" in thinking "It's all in a character's head." - Which it may be or may not be.

What if your Heaven/Hell situation was "Things going on in a person's brain?" I mean, with the exception of maybe a few hardcore anti-theists who ABSOLUTELY MUST BE RIGHT and ABSOLUTELY must make sure everyone sees them as right, right, right, dammit! I don't know too many people, even those very sure in their atheism, who would object to a dying old woman or a sick child seeing light and angels as they die. Maybe they'd be weirded out by grandma's brain-rot ramblings, but I don't think they'd go out of their way to try to deny a dying person (at least one they liked) their peace.

Hell can be the same way. I consider myself to have been to Hell many times because that's what a depressive episode is. (I'm talking about serious mental illness, I'm bipolar). "Hell" is just about the best way to describe it, I think.

I hope I could be of help. I have a strong agnostic streak, but I know that I'm a worthless little knee-bower who's stupid enough to talk to the air when I'm feeling down, so you might not care about my ideas. I am not yet brave enough to see if I'm right, wrong, or will go through dying brain-glitches yet so I don't know how reliable I am. If I do get that brave and it only "nearly" happens, maybe I'll get back to you on what it's like.

For me, an ideal world, a "heaven" wouldn't just be a place where nobody died. I'd be a place where no one ever wants to die.

In which I attempt to be a writer.

No, I get it, I'm atheist too. My goal in this is trying to figure out the most appealing version of paradise, rather than heaven, amongst those who do not believe a place exists. I'm trying to pick people's brains when it comes to what a paradise would be to them personally.

knock that shit off.

That is actually a really good seed for the idea I was searching for. I'd change the title, but it won't let me, but I think you get what I'm trying to figure out when it comes to describe a desirable paradise, with your works.

Right now "a place where everything is good and you live forever" wasn't specific enough to write about for me, or to make it into a central goal of the story. I have an idea of what paradise would be, but everyone's ideas of it are different, and what I'm trying to do is figure out what exactly people want, or characters want, when they go there.

Do people want sex when they get there? Do they want to ascend into a higher being or remain themselves? Does heaven have to be ruled by a God or other being or is everyone there able to control themselves? Can you leave at any time?

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Bound in a wheeled cage drawn by a heavily armored vehicle, the prisoners of the Infernalinde queen, Abyzou, were nearing closer and closer to their field of execution. Inside the cube of grizzled iron were three female prisoners and one male. One of the girls sat in place with her dark wings draped to her sides. Another girl, her scarlet hair adorned with

City of the Fallen - As Wings Blot out the Sun Immediate Music - Death March E.S. Posthumus - Kalki Two Steps From Hell - Hypnotica Immediate Music - The Breach

Would the void be a desirable place for one to go as opposed to a different afterlife destination? If you had a choice what would you want happen to you after your end?

Also your sentence about ghosts hijacking the bodies of infants and mindless bodies actually got my brain juices flowing for a different concept of immortality in my story! Thanks! You helped me in a way I didn't even expect!

Also, why is there no sun in your hellish heaven?

for the sake of my question lets say you get to make your own heaven during the end, with no Big G influence at all. What would its defining characteristic s be, and why?

No it's alright. I need more insight from others, otherwise most of my stories will come out to be self-serving, one-dimensional and solipsistic.

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It still seems more like a general question rather than one specific to atheists, unless one is dealing with atheists who want to be wrong on the level of wanting there to be wet-fire.

I actually think there might be a topic on afterlives somewhere in World Building? I know there was a thread on crafting a Utopia that I was in briefly that went in predicable directions. (I pretty much chafed at someone claiming the had a way to build one with some kind of social "ap" because I'm a rebellious, stubborn thing who'd kick against it and, of course, the Utopia started with killing off people like me to make it happen). Looking in on that might be helpful?

In which I attempt to be a writer.

Paradise is as personal as any person's combinations of wants and needs. Even if it involves having pornstars fulfill your every desire, I'm pretty sure the people involved or at least their descriptions will vary from person to person. If there's endless chocolate, some people may demand Belgian and some people may settle for Hershey's (or demand Hershey's, but only frozen).

I also doubt anyone's vision of paradise would ever be static. Once you're there, it would presumably change in time. You can only have so much chocolate before you want to try something new.

I don't think it's possible for there to be any kind of ultimate reward or punishment that's not personalized, honestly. Like the episode of Doctor Who about the SF take on the Labyrinth; a million rooms and one contains the fear that will utterly destroy you; the others belong to other people and may or may not affect you at all. You never know which is yours; you never know what the fear is. (Because in truth humans can be quite poor at evaluating their own desires and needs, and hence their opposites.) But then you open the door, and it's there, and somehow it could never have been anything else.

Nous restons ici.

I actually like both of those ideas. Thanks!

I'll go take a look at world building too.

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Also think about the ways some philosophers have looked at hell. There's "Hell is being with other people who rub you the wrong way for eternity" or "Hell is the ultimate be careful what you wish for scenario where you get your initial paradise, but it gets old fast and you're stuck with it." (And those are the ones that come from the top of my head.)

But yeah — like others have said: ideas of paradise and torture are extremely personal and subjective and all that crap.

Award-winning screenwriter. Directed some movies. Trying to earn a Creator page. I do feedback here.

The mainstream Christian interpretation of the two concepts is more based off the Hellenistic religions than it is on the actual Biblical content. Neither are mentioned in the Old Testament, and scholars can't rely agree on what the New Testament means to portray them as.

The word "hell" is of Anglo-Saxon origin, and different concepts get translated as it in the more popular translations (NKJV). The place of the dead in the Bible is called Sheol / Hades. Gehenna is the supposed destination of evil people, but the way it's described is highly symbolic. It refers to a historical place where people would sacrifice children to Canaanite gods by burning them at the stake. Most references to burning are talking about this place.

If you want to create an interesting depiction of the afterlife, I suggest you research differing scholarly interpretations from multiple religions. The mainstream pop culture versions are laughably oversimplified.

If you find the text above offensive, don't look at it.

Hell: stuck in an interminable "Corporate Vision" meeting for eternity while it's sunny outside and your motorbike is sitting idle in the parking lot...

Incidentally, you can achieve that here on Earth as all meetings with "Vision" or "Strategic Planning" or "Rebranding" or related corporate-bullshit buzzwords in the title actually do last for eternity.

The void is everything outside time and space. It's something no human can ever truly conceive of and I've literally hurt myself trying to imagine something that is both eternal and infinite. It's not a...state...in which a sentient being would or could exist. It's something that “shouldn't” exist.

I'm glad my freakish reincarnation hypothesis was useful in that way.

I believe my hellish heaven is the perfect place for me and others like me but would suck for people who are the opposite of us. For one thing, I'm a nocturnal person and the night makes me feel powerful, liberated, and mystically connected to everything around me; I think this is more a reflection of my head spirit's nature than environmental stimuli (but I'll admit I could very well be deluding myself). My love of darkness is directly connected to my love of the gothic and vampiric subcultures as well as “occult” subjects. It's not a nice place for nice people but it's not necessarily a place of torment either and I certainly don't expect to remain there for the rest of eternity.

As a fantasy writer, I've created more afterlife scenarios than I can remember in detail. The most "dramatically beautiful" one is the one I use for my Black Mythos. When a spirit (Elemental Embodiment) dies, its mind ceases to exist; when a beast (Talking Animal) dies, its mind merges with that of its species' totem and ceases to exist as an individuality but continues to exist as part of the Mind Hive; when a monster (Petting-Zoo People) dies, his/her/xir mind merges with that of their lineages' archetype and ceases to exist as an individuality but continues as part of the mind hive; when a mortal (Humans Are Special) dies, his/her/xir mind continues to exist as a ghost that will fade away unless it steals life from living things, especially mortals. Totems, archetypes, and ghosts are all ruled by the king of the faeries, who protects the totems and archetypes but uses ghosts to create The Undead and Golems. The only beings even close to immortal are the faeries, who must consume the souls of mortals to preserve their youth and resilience.

edited 9th Jan '15 4:40:20 AM by nekomoon14

Level 3 Social Justice Necromancer. Chaotic Good.

I really don't get this at all. Why in the world would someone view no conflict as being horrendous or horrifying? Wouldn't no conflict be a good thing? And why do you think that no conflict would make life meaningless? It's not like you need conflict to find meaning. Explanation please?

(Does anybody know why the quoteblocks aren't working?)

edited 12th Jan '15 2:48:20 PM by shiro_okami

>> What is your ideal heaven, and your ideal hell?

Putting this above so that it's clear what exactly I am replying to, in all that mess.

I'll be honest Aespai, the "ideal heaven" and "ideal hell", as adapted to beliefs and non-beliefs of atheists, is a mess that will give you nothing you would be able to use in your writing. And, assuming that you are indeed an atheist and are not willingly blind to it, you probably should be aware of that.

Anyhow, I'm not trying to insult you or anything so please do not try to interpret the above as such an action. My point is, for most atheists any visions of "heaven" and "hell" would not be those of their own preference but rather that which is most commonly expressed by those they interact with. If the whole thing is an issue and a fictional place in a story of sorts, then you are far more likely to just repeat whichever of the few versions you might have heard than really think about it. And if any atheist has any personal opinion about what may be "heaven" and "hell", it is going to be something in this very life.

Case in point, my vision of "it". To be honest, I don't and won't and wouldn't ever call it "heaven" or "hell", but if you ask me about what my personal visions of those are and force me to answer, those are going to be my answers. "Heaven" is going through my life and dying at peace with myself, knowing that I managed to make some difference. "Hell" is dying a senseless death that could have been avoided.

As you probably noticed, those aren't really places. Those are situations that of some sort.

So from there on, you have to think about why you want the story to pander to atheists in particular in that regard, and about how realistic is is supposed to be. If very realistic, then just leave it vague and don't describe anything after death at all. That's all we know about it, after all, which is that we don't really know anything but believe in some version. If somewhat realistic but with some fantasy elements, go for whichever version suits the plot best, just don't make it into an asspull and you'll be fine. And if it's a fantasy world, anything goes.

Anyhow, as I probably should give out some usable ideas ...

Heaven, or paradise, or whatever, could be a place that allows one to sort of live normally, but keeps their deep subconscious desires fulfilled, keeps the ones there comfortable with that. A place where they could succeed or fail, choose left or right, feel happy or sad, but at the end of the day all the fears and pain that they felt uncomfortable during their life simply aren't there. Someone who was blind during their life might find themselves seeing again, or still being blind but being able to function fully normally in this place and surrounded by living images of people who treat them as if they were fully normal and not handicapped. Someone who had to hurt people for the sake of "greater good" and wanted to break down because of it but pushed ahead out of necessity might find themselves surrounded by living images of people they hurt but did not want to, people angry at them for what happened but willing to listen and allowing them to earn forgiveness ... because that person does not want to forgive themselves until they earn it.

In the same vein, hell, or however else you call it, could be a place in which one's alleged desires are fulfilled but in a way that violates the spirit of the desire, makes it impossible for them to have their true and deepest desires fulfilled, and makes them regret it. Someone who was greedy during their life to the point of hurting other people because of money and not caring about those they hurt, who thinks they want to be the richest person in the world, might find themselves in possession of uncountable riches, but living in a world where all the things, products, and services, are plentiful and shared amongst everyone for free because people care about each other, but nobody cares about that person and thus even though they are the richest of all the people, they essentially have nothing. Someone who manipulated people whenever possible without regard to their comfort, might find themselves in a world where there are a lot of people, but those people are literally human-shaped living dolls that do what they are ordered to, only what they are ordered to, and exactly what they are ordered to, so maintaining a constant control over every detail is necessary for their own survival ... and they can't manipulate anyone into doing anything to comfort them, or rather, even if they did that it would not be comforting at all because they'd still have to control everything.

And that's it from me. Hope any of it was in any way useful.

edited 11th Jan '15 8:00:41 PM by Kazeto

Atheism doesn't have any centralized whatchamahoozits beyond "Doesn't believe in god(s)", so you can't really say "Atheist's ideal of Heaven. Supposing such a place existed, ideal is based on personal interpretation. Maybe the ideal world of Bob the Atheist is one where everything is the same but the Packers win the Superbowl.

You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!

That's a heaven I could live in, then XD

Level 3 Social Justice Necromancer. Chaotic Good.

Those two ideals really rang with me, and both of them were wonderfully written. Thanks! It's this insight which I was going after, and you basically understood what I was trying to word out, even though I didn't do it correctly.

In general its a story about an atheist building a virtual reality heaven for other atheists, however since they don't believe in the religious heaven I had no idea what they would actually want in their paradise, or what people want out of their paradises period.

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Glad to be of some help in spite of all my rambling, assuming that was directed to me.