Suicide Squad Movie

You got it, I think.

My issue is not with deciding to make their relationship a Bonnie and Clyde type of "criminal romance", because it's an adaptations, things will be changed, and it's not unprecedented nor unworkable (The Batman says hi). It might be a relatively less interesting choice in my opinion, but it's a functional one. You could also try to be faithful and portray their relationship as highly unhealthy.

The real issue the movie has is that it tried to be both and the end result ends up having some very ugly Unfortunate Implications regarding abusive relationships.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

The fucked-uppedness (to coin a phrase) of the circumstances is the point, though. You're right to take issue with it in a real-world sense, but as a story, it's supposed to be absurd and awful, like everything else about the Joker. He doesn't deserve her loyalty, he shouldn't get to be right about human nature— but by all rights the Joker shouldn't be anywhere near as happy as he is based on what he's done, yet he certainly seems to enjoy himself. The world's not fair. People don't get the redemption or retribution or the happiness they deserve. More often than not, they just wind up dead. That's Gotham for you.

edited 25th Feb '17 12:30:43 AM by Unsung

Yeah, is a weakness in the backstory as Harley is to young to psyqchetrist and is REALLY awkard when someone who is a professional fall for the Joker of all people.

I dont think they want to do both, it look they first set the relationship as mutual unhealthy as it show Harley order a electroshok therapy that screw whatever memories he have and them he return the favor, or her pulling a gun in front of him, it make clear Harley is not so good in the head ether, being clingy,violent and something of adreline junkie which is true to her.

But them they move foward to a bonnie & clyde kind of things and a times it show the residual part of the script.

Yeah you are right but I feel it was a mistake from the writer, I dont mind if she stay a victim but it never feel adress in any meanifull way, as she get pregnet(which it heckles my willing suspencion of disbelief) and them she is gone from the story until one simple moment later, that is why I call her a third wheel: she is neither a victim who never got away or someone who break off, just someone who is there.

And while I said again and again, I recomend the joker blog for a good charaterization of the joker and Harley, I like that a lot.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

One thing is that Harley and Joker's relationship is Romanticized Abuse at its core, Suicide Squad didn't create that with its new interpretation. You can't have things like that are played for humor like the pie, "Rev up your Harley" and the heart shaped Iris Out and say the dramatic way he pushes her out a window (and her still going back to him) makes it all go away. The very nature of a long standing character with a variety of different stories told by a variety of different writers means that Harley is never too far away from the Joker and always retains her loveable quirkiness. The only way to avoid Romanticized Abuse would probably be a self-contained mini-series that shows the entire relationship from beginning to end, the change in personality as she understands how self-destructive her relationship is and her finally breaking away from the Joker at the end is done as a true finale instead of including another backslide.

Something that has always been played with by a number of writers is the fact that Harley is still, ultimately, a bad guy. So even though her origin depends extensively on Joker, she has participated in a large number of horrific acts and seems to think it is all okay. So having her with her own checkered past and delinquencies makes it so that the Joker was preying on those innate parts of her rather than a corruption of a complete innocent.

I'd say that another way to avoid Romanticizing Abuse is to just not include the Joker at all. Sure, it would be ignoring the issue rather than confronting it (which is what your hypothetical does), but it might work better in the context of a movie. Like, make a Gotham City Sirens film where the Joker simply doesn't appear — perhaps they had a split, perhaps the Joker threw her out (like he periodically does), perhaps she caught him trying to kill her — but leave him out of the actual film.

Suicide Squad, I think, would have been improved had the Joker either been the main bad guy (in which case, Harley would have had a real purpose for being there and had to choose where her loyalties were) or if the Joker wasn't in it at all (in which case, there would be no distracting subplots that go nowhere).

In both cases it create issues, having the joker to be the bad guy make him take over like he always does(see under the red hood, arkham assult,etc) but if you leave him out them it kinda miss a element of Harley and we go back to the batman issue to try to guess what happen between the two.

in fact, is just me or joker have that tendecy of overtaking plots? he have become the ganon of DC.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Definitely not just you.

That's why I would prefer that he not be in it at all.

That's why I was talking about the Joker and Harley relationship specifically, not Harley in general. You ignore that relationship altogether and of course you don't fall into that trap.

I actually really liked what the movie tried to do with Joker, a minor antagonist screwing with the main story with his own agenda. He's so rarely not a primary villain that it's kind of refreshing. And it's that kind of storytelling that is using the Shared Universe as a concept to its fullest, having a recurring character make their rounds across different stories (a la Nick Fury). It's unfortunate Nolan never got to do his "Joker on trial" idea, because I wonder what kind of impact that type of story would have on the modern comic book movie landscape. A number of people were saying the Lizard surviving Amazing Spider-Man was unique when it really wasn't, plenty of comic villains have survived the movies. It's being able to use the previous villain in the sequel with a supporting role that we haven't quite gotten. We get repeat villains like Loki or Magneto, and we get cameo villains like Osborn and Scarecrow, but not that middle ground.

Others have noticed it, yes.

• It started with Batman Arkham Asylum, or at least that's when I noticed it. For a game that celebrates Batman's history and long list of villains the plot was centered around him and Joker. This was alright because there'd never been this fusion of funny Joker and sadist Joker before.
• Then Arkham City came out, and the plot, which started off about Hugo Strange and then shifted to the League became Joker's curtain call. But then Joker was dead, so, amen right?
• Then Arkham Origins happened and it was supposed to be about Batman's first encounter with the Joker. But you'd think there'd be more to it since so many other villains were involved... and then it was about Joker, again.
• Arkham Knight brought Joker back from the dead Battlestar Galactica-style. Doesn't it just feel like Joker's strangling Batman storylines a little?

Well of course he is. He's Batman's most iconic foe, his opposite, and people love opposites and parallels. There's a reason it's "Batman and Superman World's Finest" and why Lex Luthor is Superman's most prominent enemy.

• Assault on Arkham gave Joker a minor role... until the end where he hijacked the antagonist role and became the squad's main threat.

...that's about it. I'm pretty sure Joker disappeared for awhile in the New 52 until Batman Endgame or whenever he cut his face off. You never hear much about that period outside of comic book circles.

Joker's heavy marketing during The Dark Knight has made some a little tired of him. Some people never liked Joker to begin with so it feels like excessive pandering. Then there's the focus on Batman stories like The Killing Joke where Joker is the main villain.

It's not really that Joker hijacks every plot but that he's a spotlight-stealing character. He's a character who exists to be noticed and loud, so his appearances are always very extravagant and conceited. He really doesn't hijack that many stories in the grand total of Batman stories that are out there but the times he does get a lot of press because Joker's interactions with Batman are the most celebrated and usually delve deeper into, or develop Batman's personality; because they're some of Batman's most popular, recent outings (The Dark Knight, the Arkham Games, the superior Suicide Squad animated film).

• Then you have Suicide Squad where, ironically, we all assumed Joker would steal the spotlight because of how he was used in the trailers and how Jared Leto was "hamming it up" getting into the role. And then the movie was edited and Joker was barely in the film at all, barely stealing any spotlight and coming in for about 3-4 non-flashback scenes.

edited 26th Feb '17 8:45:26 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

This film just got an academy award, not so bad for a worthless movie.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV

Joker and Harley were rocking the tats.

edited 26th Feb '17 6:06:02 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

The old saying about lipstick and pigs comes to mind.

Yeah, the joker like superman and to some extend other like Capitan, aren chararter concern much about them and their grow but their impact around them, the joker in particular dosent have backstory or any good ties to anyone(which is why i feel Harley being a victim of him dosent work, he pay her so little atention she is afterthought to the story) eventually he tend to overcome things a lot.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Babe had a make-up artist dedicated to making all the piglets look identical, if you can make a pig look pretty that is pretty damn impressive and you would deserve that award. A movie is a lot of artists, if one does an exceptional job it should not be overlooked. Good art is good art. Don't forget Margo Robbie got a Critics Choice award.

I think Killer Croc was the one that clinched the award. Something I don't think a lot of people even realized but both Joker and Harley had bleached skin. It wasn't straight up white paint evenly coated over their body but had its own variations in hue and pigment. And then she had to put lipstick and eye shadow on top of that, along with it being smudged in fighting and running in the rain.

I suppose that's quite true.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

Yeah, the movie have is flaw but let credit where credit is due, it deserve at least that.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Was I the only one who thought Killer Croc looked awful in the movie, though? Especially when he was shirtless, he just looked like an overly large head awkwardly put onto the wrong body.

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He looked wrong because he should have been King Shark

Mel Gibson gives update

Batman Ninja more like Batman's Bizarre Adventure

the same guy who said Bv S is shit now want to direct a DC movie....I dont know what to feel about it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

'Everyone has their price, and mine happens to be a big fat bag of cash.'

Joker and Darkseid, yeah. In Joker's case, at least, it's part and parcel with DC pushing Batman as their lynchpin character in basically everything.

edited 27th Feb '17 11:32:45 AM by KnownUnknown

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

[ScreenRant] Why Suicide Squad Won Its Academy Award. Makes good points.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV

Harley ultimately going back to Joker over and over is pretty much the same thing as Riddler going back over and over to the riddles compulsion, or Two-Face falling down the Heel-Face bandwagon time and time again. Most Batman villains are marked by a Chronic Villainy Fatal Flaw they can't escape from, both because of bad luck or because of inner urges, she's no different in that regard. Even so, Post Flashpoint she's been mostly in Joker abstinence, even if often the writers push so hard to make that clear it ends up looking like a Suspiciously Specific Denial.

One thing I'll give them is that they did do good costumes, so I get them getting this award.

It doesn't change the steaming pile that is this movie, but kudos to the costume and makeup people.

I'm baaaaaaack