Space Fantasy! Worlds building help.

Yo, Iv'e been working on a my space fantasy setting for a while and I've managed to nail down a lot of the big questions of the setting.

I've got my races,the tech-level is set, the ,magic systems are in place and the religions are in place and metaphysics has been laid down.

However there remain some kinks in the setting that need to be worked out and I'd like to ask for the help of Tv-tropers of a world-building inclination.

The first question is how might the economy of caste based society work? I have three caste,guardians ( who are the military,police/ judiciary and intelligence), Gnosis(who are the scholars, scientist) praxis the largest caste ( who are the workers, both ditch diggers and architects are of the caste though of very different ranks. I'm a little undecided on whether or not a fourth caste of bureaucrats/governors should exist ; thoughts?

The main question is this, I don't want the society to pure socialist/communist in. nature. If their is at least some free enterprise I can't see who is supposed to be carrying it out. at the age of majority everybody is required to pick a caste. with everyone working for the community/government who are the business people. should there be a dedicated commercial caste,or dose everybody dabble in the market during the off season, or times of surplus labor in a certain sect of a caste.

My biggest bit of advice (just like in every other worldbuilding question) is to look at how these things worked in Real Life and adapt/expand for your own system.

That said, here are a few resources to get you started from The Other Wiki:

• Article on Castes. This outlines what a caste system is and gives an overview of a few caste systems in the world.
• The Caste System in India is really well-defined. This Very Wiki also touches on the system over at Type Caste. Also look into how the Indian caste system has evolved in modern times.
• Another obvious one is the class system in Edo-period Japan.
• Also note that modern Western society has a loose caste system, although it's not enforced and we use the Upper Class, the Middle Class, and the Poor.

And then there's at least a couple pages you might find useful on This Very Wiki, along with the works they list:

• Fantastic Caste System, where a sci-fi or fantastical setting has its own caste system.
• Hive Caste System, where (you guessed it!) the caste system is more rigid like bugs. Or a hive mind.

With only three castes (and none of them being merchants) their society if going to be extremely simple and rather unproductive. If the castes are fixed (no upward mobility) then there would be very few incentives for innovation or increasing productivity. Their biggest challenge will be population control.

The three castes Guardian, Praxis,Gnosis are all in theory equals. Though individual members most definitely are not. The ditch digger are the architect are both praxis(worker) caste however one clearly is higher ranked than the other. Also our afforded mentioned Architect out ranks Guardian and Gnosis equivalent of the ditch digger. If I include the Arches caste of ruler/administrators. Their primary job would be bureaucratic,seeing that everything and everyone is and goes where they need to. the chief Arches wouldn't be able to make decision that would effect the whole of the empire such as altering or creating/ repealing laws,declaring war,without the vote of the other caste chiefs. The actual authority of an archos even a high ranking one is limited to their roles as administrators, they wouldn't be able to give orders to other caste members just because.

The caste best compared to vocational societies not to dissimilar from a guild. The only thing that restricts caste membership is aptitude, though there are families that doubtlessly take great pride in saying that they have been one caste for generations.

The economy as I said beffore is where thing get murky for me. I know of one example of a functioning (quasi) socialist society [[ http://io9.com/the-greatest-mystery-of-the-inca-empire-was-its-strange-1198541254 the ancient Inca]]. But I don't want these people to be completely socialist in nature. Caste members are given "something" beyond honor and prestige for doing their work. And they can and do trade with other cultures,so their must be some medium of exchange beyond barter?

the best idea that i got came from the http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_movement that caste members are paid in some sort of work/energy/time credit. And that is what they use to purchase things.

Even in a society that civic duty first,people are still going to want stuff.

But this brings me back the question of who sells stuff? Should their be a dedicated commercial/mercantile caste. Should everybody be able to engage in commercial activities during their off hours/season.

Dude, you're opening a huge can of worms with this. You seem unaware of the centuries of debate over utopian communities and whether or not one could design a structured community that could function in a self-autonomous way. For the purposes of fiction, your set-up doesnt have to be that realistic, but if you want to stay within the bounds of real-world plausibility, you really have your work cut out for you. It may be impossible.

One basic challenge is that people compete for wealth, with unexpected outcomes. Pretty soon, any such society will end up with ditch-diggers who are wealthier than architects, and and who begin seeking a corresponding level of political influence. If you have no official bankers or merchants, then very quickly an underground economy will arise, and this will tend to undermine the official authorities.

Historically, the only setting in which this has ever worked is some form of feudalism. This explains the castes in Medieval Europe, or historical India. Feudalism can last a long time, as long as the society is not seriously threatened by a more advanced society from somewhere else. But this basically requires a war-lord class sitting on top of everyone else using the threat of force to keep the castes in line. This works best when the tech level is such that the most effective combat equipment is very expensive to acquire (steel armour) and only an elite class can afford it. But I am skeptical that any kind of egalitarian society could actually be set up this way.

It's your story, though, make it any way you like.

That's a completely logical and sensibly realistic explanation for why it won't work in real life; this sounds like an anything-goes fantasy sort of thing.

Which is where some sort of hardwired (wetwired?) caste system comes into play. We don't really see it in humans because we're too damn different despite being interoperable, so real-world explanations are probably not going to work.

And this would be my solution: a Hive Mind of some sort, with the twist that the synchronization only works with a certain species due to a quick in their biology. Due to this, they do not have the 'traditional' xenophobia or aggressiveness, because that mindset is enormously counterproductive once you realize just how small your corner of the universe is, and how small you yourself are in it. (In fact, I would make this Hive Mind system a response to interstellar trade, as being able to instantaneously coordinate and respond to trade needs - while eliminating petty strife amongst one's own home planet - would be a good selling point.)

So what keeps people in this race, who are individuals, actively wanting to join the Hive Mind? There is a certain sense of... sort of a mix between 'solidarity' and 'patriotism', because no matter how big you or your collective mind is, it's simply not that big. This drives the majority of this race towards joining the Hive Mind.

The real world metaphor for this type of connection is not cloud computing so much as smart phones - individuals can and do operate on their own without the Hive Mind, but will need to connect to it for various needs. (Consequently, the idea of a phone or messaging network seems as silly to them as mail-by-pigeon does to us: "I mean, you can do it, but it's not as efficient as [insert communication method here]".)

The three castes are not professions so much as duties - with a large enough population, one's 'duty' and 'job' (retail, business, etc.) can both be part-time. What needs to get done, gets done. So while everyone works for the government and common good in some way, that's not the same thing as their job or their home life. (And this is why a Hive Mind Caste system would be rejected outright: it forces people into a single profession.)

And what keeps members of this race from joining, and remaining 'true' individuals? Probably a desire to not be part of anything but themselves. Either way, this is about the best I can come up with - I don't know what you were expecting, fomar, when you made a whole planet a monoculture.

Why make it voluntary? If the Hive Mind is a function of technology (perhaps a brain implant), then it could be inserted soon after birth, never giving people an opportunity to experience individuality. But I dont know if that is what the OP is looking for.

Because making it involuntary is a cliche, and what normally happens with this trope when someone is 'jailbroken'?

In-universe... it would make it difficult to trade with this race for cultural and religious reasons? (To borrow from your quote a little, demarquis, would a society that prides itself on liberty willingly trade with an openly 'slave' race?)

edited 20th Aug '14 1:35:09 PM by DeusDenuo

Depends on how cynical you are. Well, I could see people willingly becoming more "hive-like" in an incremental fashion, if there were measurable benefits to it. The most obvious is an improvement in employee productivity due to increased efficiency of teamwork and collaborative productive processes. A reduction in overt conflict. Significant gains in high tech communication and information sharing. Depending on the exact nature of the production technology, possession of the brain implant might be a requirement of employment for most skilled positions.

But again, I dont know if the OP is at all interested in these ideas.

Hive-minds?! This has gone far afield from my initial postings? It's cool though the discourse,the exchange of ideas is what I seek; those that can help me smooth out world-building are the most personally relevant..but discus away!

I'm well aware of the many failed attempts at utopia. this fictional society need not be perfect,just work well enough to not give me and future readers/players to many headaches.

I use the term "caste" for the sectors of this society for the sake of flavor, in terms of how they function, they have little in common with historical caste systems. The term guild is actually more accurate, but even that isn't an exact analogue.

There are three castes that I know are going to be a part of the society, the workers, the guardians ( which encompasses the military,intelligence agencies, and judiciary), the scholars.

The two castes who's existence that I am undecided on, are an administrative and a mercantile; thus I've sought the opinions of other world-builders on the subject.

As for how a person gains their caste. a citizen is trained and educated until they reach the age of majority. At that time they are given an aptitude test, and the now full citizen may join any caste who's requirements that they meet. Caste further divided into sects that correspond to specific areas of a given caste's duties. The sects of the guardian have already been stated.

The castes in this society/empire are not tiered the scholars do rule over the workers and the guardians. Each caste has it's own ranking system, with exception of the high council which is made up of the Chiefs of each of the castes. No caste has any direct authority over the others.

As far the ditch diggers trying to amass enough power through wealth to subvert or over through the entire system. That possibility would depend on if money even exist in this society? I'd like it to ,these people in my mind shouldn't be pure socialist. They need to able to trade with other cultures so they must have a medium of exchange; is it used internally. I do know that if I give these people a type of currency, it's coining will be under the direct control of the government; and maybe the issuing of credit.

No currency means that the entire economy is based on barter- investment for new forms of business will be non-existent. Economic growth is essentially limited to population growth, and the governing unit can be no larger than a small city. Essentially pre-historic Sumeria.

If currency, then surplus wealth can be saved over time, and invested in the most profitable forms of production. Polities larger than a city-state become possible, and eventually you get the Roman Empire. The problem is inheritable wealth- if a rich person can leave their fortune to their children, then membership in the economic elite becomes based on lineage rather than merit, and your "caste" system becomes a literal caste system, not a guild system. That is, in fact, the historical reason why the first socialists proposed doing away with private property. There's a reason why this never happened in history.

But so what? It's your story, you can do what you want. Fiction is all about "What If?" Maybe the people in your story discovered an organizing principle that historical people never did. Or maybe they have a technology that makes this possible. Or maybe they're aliens. Whatever. You're not limited to what actually happened, so go crazy, and dont overthink it.

The way you describe your system sounds a bit like Divergent. Just pointing that out in case you want another reference.

Another form of voluntary caste system can be found in the Community episode App Development and Condiments. It's more of a satire, but it's all voluntary.

And why would or should someone become part of a caste? (Or guild, or what have you.) I'm still a little confused on that part.

Why do people volunteraly join caste? Well do people join the militery or get government jobs. Pay and benefist aside, it's beacuse of a sense of civic duty and patroism/matrotism,Tradition and social pressure.

Strange, I hadn't really thought about what happens to the individuals who refuses to participate in the system; the best ideas that have right now are imprisonment or exile.

Demarqui,you sir or madadm make good points.

The instability of the system might actualy to useful to the story that I'm trying to outline. The back story was that, some seventeen years beffore the protagonist were born the caste society was overthrown and driven out of the world's only true metropolis. by A warlord from the south. Disgruntled members of the caste society would have helped.

As a member of multiple sci-fi fantasy fandoms I spend a lot of time over thinking other peoples works, I could do no less for my own.

up]

One of the other issue that I'd been having was the literal shape of the cosmos. I had a lot of wired and exotic ideas about how this cosmos was going to work. Ttars don't exist, all the heat light and building blocks of life come white-hole like eruption into this dimension from the eternal storm beneath the skien of the cosmos, space is filled with aether. I realised that my problem was that I had been trying to fit weird into the normal cosmos. So to solve that problem I threw out normal cosmosmolgy completely...and went old-school.

Each world is essentially a mini-cosmos, a flat disc sitting inside a massive crystal-sphere with an unmoving sky-fire overhead. The sky-fire has at least two cycles, the first is a mirror of real world day night cycle, the second is a mirror of seasons, the amount of energy that sky-fire gives off waxes and wanes.

This of course means that I must now figure out how weather operates on a disc.

The Crystal-spheres are all connected through a resonent energy, that can be harnessed to move between them.

to speak a little bit more on the caste society. I might borrow an idea that I had initially used for another more"conventional" culture,lack of true private property. All lands and the resources there in belong to the state, and people then leases the land from the state for their uses; all such leases are subject to the needs of the state. This would give the government a means of control over those wealthy enough to leases land, through the threat of lease termination and eviction.

I Imagine that most people in the caste society do not own land or seek to do so; An american-ish frontier claiming mythos simply isn't part of their cultural mentality. They live in caste housing and use public transportation,when a personal craft is needed they'd rent one from the state.

Now for some literal world building , what are some of the things that must be considered for a flat planet?

I placed the flat worlds(mini-naturally accruing alderson disks) inside what appears to a-sphere great crystal sphere the sphere rotates once every twenty four hours. Moving a Helion the source of heat light and matter with in it; the Helion waxes and wanes producing a season cycle. The disk slowly turns generating something equivalent to the Coriolis effect,thus hurricanes.

So did I miss anything.

Answering your "literal" question, now.

How fast does said disc turn? Unless it's comparably Earth-speed, you might have problems.

Also, how flat are we talking? Paper-flat? Bowl-shaped? Dome-shaped? Biconvex? Plano-convex? Plano-concave? Biconcave? And how thick is the actual surface material? Earth-crust-sized? (or, about 25 miles/40km) Or double the size of Earth's crust, since it (potentially) supports two sides?

How does gravity work if there's no center of mass?

What happens when people reach the edge of the world?

What happens if someone wants to dig to the other side of the world?

Is there something on the other side of the sky-sphere? Another culture, perhaps?

Do people know that the sky-sphere is an actual barrier? Does anyone "look to the stars"? Has anyone suggested smashing through the sky-sphere and seeing what's on the other side? What would happen if they did?

Does the sphere-thing have its own laws of physics? I imagine it does, since it's supporting a flat planet. And if so, you'll have to think about what those physical laws would be.

Sorry if this is a lot. This is literally me spewing out questions as they come to mind. In text.

Have fun!

Gravity works the way it would on an alderson disk is suppose.

The world is flat enough I guess, plano-concave fits best the image that I have in my head.

When some reaches the edge of the world l'd assume that they'd fall off if the jumped; some of things that I read about gravity on an infinite plane are right then the unfortunate soul would fall backwards towards the disk.

Trying to drill straight through the planet and emerge on the other side would be quite dangerous. I'm not sure if a flat world would have a core as we know it,but something is driving the seismic and volcanic activity.

What's outside of the sky sphere is open aether,a silvery mist.

I supposes that they know that the worlds are contained inside these crystal-spheres. They shattered but the people can't do it and wouldn't want to,their are large hungry things swimming through the aether. If their are natrual ways in and out they'd be at the poles.

Each sphere having it's own "quirks" would an interesting idea but I'm feeling that it would overly complicate an already convoluted cosmos.

The more I try to be clever, otherworldly and whimsical the more world building headaches that I have.

This is why it's good to not be too clever. "Clever" is good (and strongly encouraged), but like most things, too much can be bad.

Alternatively, when you are clever, do it with with a subject you enjoy (anthropology in my case).

And sometimes trying to be "clever" can lead to downright confusing Fridge Logic. Just look at all the bad, overblown Hollywood movies. Or Primer.

In any case, those questions were just things to think about. Some of that is stuff you can't truly answer in one sentence of Hand Waving. My suggestion: Figure out how things work, why they work, and if you can't come to a solution, it might be time to "kill your darlings" (as the saying goes) and find another option for how your world is structured.

Happy worldbuilding!

Yeah I might just have to set aside/find another use for "my darlings" I could never kill them.

Dose anyone know of some possible alternatives to radar? One element of my world-building is that the space in this space fantasy is not a vacuum,rather it is filled with a silvery aether. The aether grows darker and denser the colder it gets,while incapable of actually solidifying can become a highly viscus fluid so dense that it is functionally solid.

Filling space with an actual aether server multiple purposes, it creates beautiful imagery; Aether whorls. whirls,currents,streams and storms. The entirety of the cosmos is essentially a nebula, friction and displacement would give just about every object floating about a wake and comet like tail. The other purpose is trope justification, it occurred to me that I could use the cosmic medium to justify the close range slow speed combat commonly seen in space opera.

The aether has even more friction than a planetary atmosphere, this puts a cap on the speed at which ships can travel. It also defracts beams even more than an atmosphere, so lasers and perhaps other energy just aren't used. The final effect is that it warps carrier waves, no conventional long range communication or radar detection. The aether essentially carries a rahter " minovsky particle" like effect.

I see aether naval combat being visualy closest to new Battlestar Galactica, with exception that some installations and maybe the heaviest classes of warship willing to pay the cost of using a decent ranged energy weapon. Then again maybe not, there are quite a few "creative" things that can be done with a projectile that can't be done with an energy beam.

Alright on to the"questions" first as to avoid unnecessary handwaving, what are some possible alternatives to radar detection, because it's just not going to work in this cosmos. Second what are some alternatives for the term "psionics and psion" the magic of the setting is flavor wise meant to lean closer to eldritch power flowing from the soul/mind than hermetic-fish spellcraft. No they can't just be psychics I'm' already using that term for something else, the best other term for magic period that i'd been able to find is thaumaturgy.

If the aether is thick enough, they might be able to use a version of Sonar. It works in water, after all.

As for the magic users, sounds a bit like Enlightenment Superpowers You could call them "The Enlightened"

I'm not exactly shore how dense the aether is supposed be. I imagine that with in the habitable zone the aether is a thin fluid a little less dense than water but denser than air.

"The Enlightened" I'll take that under consideration. The Psi/magic of this setting is both hereditary and learn able,how dose that work? It's like talent and skill in the real world, anybody if they worked at it could learn to play an instrument however, their are some people who just naturally take to music, and natural aptitudes often to run in families. The most accurate name for the setting's mages would be Vibrants(which just seemed to mundane)or Vibrators(which i can't use for obvious reasons),the only way that i was finally able to balance the magic system was decided that whatever power they were wielding behaved a lot like a vibration.

Telekinesis,teleportation,shape-shifting physical enhancement,transmutation and disintegration of matter, pyro/cryokinesis. Broadcast and resceptive telepathey/empathy Control of the three radiancesses,lux fulminos and thermia. Even a form of sympathetic magic. Could all exist with in the concept of magic as vibration,as did all the logical counter measures.

A art is divided into main categories internal and external. With inner arts a mage/psion can only effect themselves, objects that they are in direct contact, or things some distance away by project force away from themselves;this is particularly costly because they are literally throwing their energy away. With external arts a practitioner generates an aura and they can effect anything with in that aura, this touching of their environment also confers a kind of clairvoyance. The most powerful can expand their auras out to miles with no diminishing of field strength.

Why doesn't ether just flood all the planets, since it's a liquid mass the size of the universe?

Well the best mundane explanation that i can come up with is that, in the habitable zone the aether is hot enough thus not dense enough to overcome atmospheric pressure. And perhaps during the formation of the planets the gassess that would become atmosphere displaced the aether.

When you said it responded to heat, I assumed that the heat source was actively pushing most of it away.

Then let me be more clear. The aether acts like any mundane liquid or glass. It expands when warm and condenses when cool. The aether is closest to being a type of metal,and can if collected be worked into metals ceramics and class. Though I'm not yet sure of what properties the aether would add.

On the subject of radar and communication I've pretty much decided that there is an aether band/wave that can be used for those purposes. And that the most common name for magic-users is going to be Adept, however that still leaves me with a search for the name of their power/art and good synonym for spell.