The origin of the Thief/Rogue class

A while back, I grew interested in how the role-playing class archetypes evolved from cultural archetypes. Warrior and wizard archetypes are pretty obvious (every mythology has some heroic knight figure and a chtonic sorcerer), but the thief class is much trickier—I've been having trouble figuring out how an inherently criminal archetype sneaked its way into the archetypal heroic party. I have several thoughts on the matter:

• Robin Hood. Heroic thief as the champion of the poor, with his origins traced to a period of corruption and general lawlessness. This would imply that cultures that did not experience disillusionment in the rule of the law on such scale could not develop this or equivalent archetype.
• Odysseus. "Thief" as a Trickster Archetype, with the focus more on underhanded tactics than on outright criminal activities. This could explain how "Thief" mutated more and more into "Rogue" over the years, i.e. a more (dirty) combat-oriented role.
• Bilbo Baggins. "Party thief" as part of the fantasy tradition started by Tolkien. This would basically imply that post-Hobbit, everyone simply copied the archetype to Follow the Leader—I don't think it's true but include it for completeness' sake.

Would be interested in other people's thoughts on the topic.

edited 14th Jul '14 4:27:09 AM by Koveras

In RP Gs I'd say it's based off Bilbo as the party's burglar in The Hobbit, same way Elves, Dwarves Orcs and Halflings has standard RPG races are owed to Tolkien's work.

Then as RPG for other settings came around, it sort of came to light that a thief/rogue/scoundrel could easily fit in other settings (See: Han Solo, Robin Hood, James Bond) so the archetype stuck around as one of the "big three" so to speak.

But as a class/archetype in a high fantasy setting? I definitely blame that on Bilbo.

edited 14th Jul '14 5:57:46 AM by CobraPrime

As I said, I thought about Bilbo, but from everything I know about Tolkien's work, he rarely invented things out of thin air—most commonly, he took existing archetypes (elves and dwarves are based on Norse svartalfar mixed with Irish aes sidhe, goblins/orcs are a bigger and badder upgrade of kobolds and their ilk, etc.) and transformed them to the point where they lost connection to the source material while still remaining recognizable. I am therefore uncertain if Bilbo doesn't, likewise, come from an older archetype.

edited 14th Jul '14 6:12:18 AM by Koveras

Yes. But the reason there's thieves in RPG is Bilbo. He might be inspired by other things (Though I think he's a more original creation that fits the plot. It's more logical for a person who lived a normal life and who is from a tiny race to be expected to become a thief than a warrior), but the reason he's a class archetype in RP Gs? Pure Bilbo.

Yes, the immediate reason for thief class may be Bilbo, but I am more interested in going further than that. The immediate reason for dwarves and elves in RPGs are Gimli and Legolas but no analysis ever stops at them, does it? So I am very much interested in what inspired Bilbo and his transformation in the modern RPG rogue archetype.

However, you do raise an interesting point: a "normal" person (and hobbits in Tolkien's works are basically the Normal People archetype) has it much easier to become The Sneaky Guy in the party than a trained fighter, to say nothing of a wizard. So maybe the reason thief/rogue was invent is to be the default Audience Surrogate in an RPG?

edited 14th Jul '14 7:23:25 AM by Koveras

The class also owes a great debt to the Mouser from Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. Fritz Leiber's work isn't as obvious today as Tolkien's or even Robert E. Howard's, but it was fairly influential on early D&D and a lot of older fantasy (as in 1970s-era "older"), and the Mouser is a lot closer to a stereotypical D&D rogue than Bilbo was or could ever be.

edited 14th Jul '14 12:44:36 PM by CountDorku

Well, I think old-school fairy tales are the proper place to look. The Brave Little Tailor, Puss in Boots, the second half of Rumpelstiltskin, or even Three Billy Goats Gruff - all of them feature protagonists that prevail by using their wits to trick their foe into submitting or who use their wits to set their foes up to fall to a more powerful foe (particularly in the case of the last one). It's a long tradition in multiple cultures to present the clever and perhaps underhanded as being able to prevail over those who may be more powerful but are capable of being laid low by a clever trick or appropriate application of skills.

edited 14th Jul '14 9:32:23 PM by 32_Footsteps

To say nothing of how many fairytale heroes get inside the forbidden castle or secret cavern and proceed to swipe as much treasure as they can carry.

Well, special attention should be given for the ones who steal, then kill. There's also a grand fairytale tradition of Munchkin play (bust down the door, kill the enemy, loot the corpse). Don't want to mix up which tabletop trope is being inspired here.

However, how many fairy tale heroes do sneak their way around, avoiding fighting monsters?

Jack And The Beanstalk

The origin in D&D was partly Bilbo, part Gray Mouser, and partly due to a need to have a character who deals with locks and traps. Because Gygax had a hard-on for locked adamantine doors and brutally unfair traps.

In particular, I'd say that the Mouser as an agile fighter has had more influence on the Rogue as a striker than any other figure. The Fighting Man class became the guy you stacked heavy armor and weapons on and had him hit stuff with those heavy weapons.

edited 16th Jul '14 9:18:52 PM by Ramidel

@11 To be fair, I indirectly cited Jack and the Beanstalk - that's an adaptation of Jack the Giant-Killer, which in turn is an adaptation of The Brave Little Tailor. Those tales did transform a bunch after many retellings.

My point is that the ways to prevail over difficulty in fairy tales came down to physical strength, mental strength, or calling upon outside powers (i.e. fighter, thief, or mage). Thieves are descended from that middle tradition.

@12 That's a bit of a gross oversimplification of Gygax's style. Keep in mind that Tomb of Horrors was made as a challenge scenario for con play where people complained that Gygax had a habit of going too easy on players. He had a reputation for being too soft for years before Tomb of Horrors.

Possibly. But what I meant to get at was that Gygax was a DM who liked traps and dungeons, so the Thief was the guy who handled lockpicking and trapbusting, as well as agile sneaky backstabs.