Needs Help (Cut and send to YKTTW Crowner 01.02): Reliable Traitor

This is so close that I'd really it rather have a few more votes.

Personally, I don't understand how Self Serving Subordinate is doing so well. The trope is not simply about a subordinate who is self-serving. A self-serving subordinate would gladly screw over his superiors as long as doing so is to their benefit. What this trope is about is a subordinate who faithfully serves their superiors not out of personal loyalty to them, or because they believe in the same cause, or out of fear of the consequences of betrayal, but because doing so advances their own agenda (which is separate from their superior's agenda, but compatible with it... for now, at least).

I'd say cut. Why bend ourselves into a pretzel trying to make this make sense. Wicks are fairly low, so zapping it would be fast and painless. Keeping a bunch of wicks back to a murky definition just means the wicks are bad.

We can't cut because there is definitely a trope here.

Um, I think eyebones was referring to the (lack of) suitability of the current page for making a trope.

If it needs a different definition, different name, and different wicks ... there is nothing left to save. Much, much better to kick it all the back to YMMV. (erp: YKTTW)

edited 2nd Jan '16 9:19:24 AM by eyebones

YKTTW, you mean. People confuse YMMV and YKTTW often.

woops. Yeah. Back to the beginning.

Started a new crowner.

It's a preexisting term and it is not a sub trope of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder, which is about someone who betrays people as a matter of course.

Reliable traitor is someone who has obvious reasons to betray you to the point you can predict when they will do so.

That's a wide distinction. You may know someone with "chronic backstabbing disorder" will betray you but if you don't know why and can't reliably predict when they do not overlap. A reliable traitor may not even have a reputation for or history of betraying people, what's important is that they have a clear reason for doing so in at least one case.

Pretty much every Laser Blade is also a Laser Cutter. Subtrope it is, not every reliable traitor is a frequent traitor and not every frequent traitor is a reliable one.

edited 2nd Feb '16 3:55:34 AM by IndirectActiveTransport

"Reliable traitor is someone who has obvious reasons to betray you to the point you can predict when they will do so."

No, that's not what the trope is. It's not someone who betrays you at regular, predictable intervals. It's someone who isn't loyal to you or your cause, but serves you faithfully anyway. They're a traitor (a subordinate who is not loyal to you) but reliable (you can rely on them) anyway.

Not according to popular usage its not and definitely not according to the trope description. It says right on the page the minion and master have goals that are somewhat similar and that the minion betrays the moment their goals no longer line up.

It further says the minion has to be open about it or it doesn't count. This isn't about reliable intervals, it's about pinpointing the moment betrayal will occur based on an already established conflict that was put on hold but is coming to the forefront.

Here are examples. Black Rose betrayed her tag team partner in IWA PR when a title belt was introduced that she was eligible for and said ally beat her to it. When she got a new tag team partner who became champion Rose told her she would be doing much of the same at the earliest opportunity. When she later came to the continental United States, she told Ivelisse Vélez that she liked her, was proud of her, but she was going to have to take her down the next time they met because was eligible for Velez's heavy gold belt.

Velez herself got that belt by going against the orders of Rain, leader of her Valkyrie stable, by going against the will of every other member Valkyrie member, something she had told them she had intended to do almost from the beginning. Even if she hadn't told them upfront, she was the only member who didn't share the group's collective gripe. She had been almost fanatically loyal otherwise but they had been repeatedly informed of where that loyalty would not apply. Velez formed a loose alliance with the Lucha Sisters after being kicked out of Valkyrie for taking the belt, but was fine with pissing it away and attacking Reasonable Authority Figure responsible for her getting a title shot in the first place just to get another. She was actually nicer about the whole thing than she said she would be.

While this was going on La Rosa Negra was recruited by Oedo tai for the purpose of taking down champions from a rival faction and none of them batted an eye when she used the position she was given to knockoff their own champion. They knew she hadn't joined to help them takeover but to get herself a title belt and found her at least attempting to do the task she was asked before returning to her own agenda acceptable.

Now La Rosa and Ivelisse have since banded together seemingly for security reasons, but we can expect infighting the moment a title belt enters the picture because it's what they do. This is not what all wrestlers do, evidenced by the refusal of the rest of Valkyrie to challenge their leader, by Leva Bates showing outright contempt for SHINE choosing her "sister" as her opponent in a contender's tournament, and showing absolutely no designs on the belt when Mia Yim finally did obtain it, later stating her values were more important than money or titles.

Eddie Edwards had to threaten to quit ROH just to get fellow American Wolf Davey Richards to accept a title shot against him. SCUM didn't approve of Steen's leadership in their twilight days but waited until he was no longer champion to move against him. Again, not all wrestlers so eagerly come to blows with their partners for this reason.

But some will betray for reasons that are not consistent, yet consistently betray nonetheless. Carlito Caribbean Cool disowned his brother and later deceived his sister without any provocation or any obvious benefit to himself after leaving WWC for OVW. When Carlito did betray someone for a title opportunity (Chris Masters), it wasn't something he was upfront about, quite the opposite. He betrayed Ray Gonzales to La Artilleria Pesada seemingly out of pure dislike even though all past interaction showed he hated La Artilleria Pesada more. He betrayed his father by trying to takeover his company after telling him he had no interest in it and saying he was going to start his own. He betrayed Ric Flair for reasons that made sense to no one but himself. He betrayed his own girlfriend Torrie Wilson just to make a point. Carlito is a frequent traitor, but he's not a reliable one. You know he's probably going to betray you, but you can't be sure when or for what reason.

Did you even read the description? Actual betrayal is completely optional.

Yeah, the description doesn't say what you think it says. It doesn't say that their goals are somewhat similar, it says that working for the master furthers the minion's goal. It doesn't say that the moment of betrayal will be exactly pinpointed, it says that the two may (as in, will sometimes but won't always) turn on each other if their goals end up conflicting. If the goals conflict, the minion may just leave, or the master may just fire them.

Basically, the two are allies of convenience because the arrangement is mutually beneficial. The master gains a useful minion and the minion gains access to the master's resources. If and when it stops being mutually beneficial, the relationship will end. That's the trope in a nutshell.

All of which is sort of a moot point, as the current crowner is at +12 (15 to 3) for "cut and re-YKTTW".

edited 4th Feb '16 1:01:52 PM by NativeJovian

Why are you trying to explain this to me. In the example I gave, Black Rose never turned on Sweet Nancy(edit: that's who I was referring to when I brought up her second tag team partner) and has yet to turn on Velez(or vice versa). The point is she would and will under certain circumstances that she was upfront with both of them about. A certain situation that did result on her turning on La Amazona and Oedo-tai, the latter of whom took in stride. I read the description, that bit about periodic regular betrayals was a clear sign of not reading it.

edited 4th Feb '16 6:35:11 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

The crowner seems to be stable, so I'll call it in favor of sending it back to YKTTW.

And if I find the resulting You Know That Thing Where I will bring this same argument.

The wicks were fine, the examples were fine, the main problems brought forth were the laconic and a confusion with another trope. The former is a quick fix and the latter distinction was made clear in the description even if one hadn't picked up on the meaning beforehand. The reliable traitor is reliable at their own convenience and the boss knows what will lead to their betrayal ahead of time. This part of description, which should be settle any confusion and distinguish it from the seemingly similar page in question is the part you take issue with?

How is going into You Know That Thing Where with such an attitude going to make anything better? By distancing the way a term is used on the wiki with the way it is used off of it? By removing multiple examples that consistently show a trope in use from the wiki? Because that is what I just read in on the first page. That the wicks were mostly fine and then a call for a wick purge. Really?

If you wish to make your opinion heard when it gets to YKTTW, you may voice it then.

Speaking of which, anyone willing to do the honors, since it's been decided?

Really, thinking it over, I'd say there is a problem with the page, but it's still not the one raised in this thread.

I'd say it's a duplicate trope with Who Needs Enemies?, which is just as well, since both are preexisting terms. I think Reliable Traitor is the more obvious to anyone not actually familiar with either term, though, and therefore the pages should be merged under reliable traitor with who needs enemies as a redirect.

The difference between them is basically that Who needs enemies is about "heroes" with "allies" who can be expected to betray the heroes the moment their agendas no longer line up and Reliable traitor is about "villains" with "minions" who can be expected to betray the villains the moment their agendas no longer line up. It's basically The Mole Reverse Mole case where a mole has to be a "villain" so any example that's presented as heroic has to be a reverse mole.

I mean, since the issue raised with the trope in this thread doesn't actually exist, attacking the failure to account for Tropes Are Flexible seems more reasonable if "repair" really needs to be done.

edited 24th Feb '16 6:16:23 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

I still don't think you actually understand the trope being described in Reliable Traitor, but I also still think it's a moot point since the crowner is still sitting at +12 (15 to 3) for "cut and re-YKTTW".

Finding Judas is a similar trope with a thread on this subforum. You may want to look at that too, since Reliable Traitor was mentioned there.

It's been going on long enough. I'll send in the sandbox contents to the launch pad and close.