Needs Help (Cut and send to YKTTW Crowner 01.02): Reliable Traitor

The page quote and many listed examples seem to be "This character can be reasonably be expected to turn on their allies." The laconic is "You know who The Mole is and what he wants, so you can predict how he will behave in any given circumstance."

The description, however, is quite different, never actually getting around to justifying the "Traitor" part of the name. It talks about a minion who doesn't like the Big Bad and works for them entirely out of self-interest, but never gets around to the actual betrayal.

Basically, I see a few problems here. It's confused with Chronic Backstabbing Disorder - i.e. used to mean "A character who repeatedly betrays people and develops a reputation for it" - and it's also used for "Character dislikes their superior," which matches the description, but not the name or the laconic.

Most of the wicks I checked seemed to be fine, but I do think something needs fixing here.

I think the trope here could be "minion who doesn't respect or fear his boss". But that has nothing to do with being a traitor to them, either.

Uh, yeah, that is as contradicting as hell. The trope I got out of here is "this character works for the villain out of pure self interest and his behaviour is predictable for that reason".

It doesn't help that the page is old enough that a) YKTTW really wasn't required and b) Zero Context Examples were the norm at the time.

Name sounds like it describes a situation where someone can be counted on to have Chronic Backstabbing Disorder, perhaps for the sake of a Xanatos Gambit.

I think a rename and a wick purge might be necessary. Also, needs to remain distinct from Wild Card.

Honestly I think most of the examples are going by the literal meaning of the trope name, that other characters know that the character can be relied on to betray their allies as soon as is advantageous or else the character happily admits it themselves. Basically a suptrope of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder.

The quotes certainly fit this better than either version of the actual trope descriptions.

edited 9th Aug '14 1:17:28 PM by ImpudentInfidel

Clocking due to inactivity.

Ok, so I see a few options.

• Rename and cleanup: "Self-interested minion" or something seems like it is a valid trope.
• Rewrite to fit examples: Iffier on this, since it just seems like a duplicate of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder.

The title seems to be a reference to the fact that the character is reliable to the people they work for despite being a traitor, not that they can be relied on to betray their employers. What the trope is trying to be is "character is self-interested above all else, and everyone knows it — but that makes them reliable enough to work with, since they can be trusted to work with you along as their interests coincide with yours". Where the Trope Decay seems to have come in is when people see it the other way around — ie, "this character is reliably (read: predictably) untrustworthy and other characters can take that into account in The Plan".

To put it another way, a clearer name might be Self Interested Ally. They work with you — not out of loyalty to you or dedication to your cause, but because working with you furthers their own aims. They may betray you as soon as it becomes advantageous to do so... but then again, going around betraying people willy-nilly like that makes it hard to get anyone to trust you, so they're just as likely to break their alliance without actually stabbing you in the back in the process.

edited 10th Sep '14 6:23:44 AM by NativeJovian

Based on Jovian's description, Vegeta of Dragon Ball Z is a Reliable Traitor during the Namek/Frieza arc specifically. He is NOT, however, ever considered a traitor, except to the Big Bad of the arc. But there's the overlap with Enemy Mine to consider. Would this version of Reliable Traitor exist without an enemy (including Man vs Nature plots)?

I don't think Vegeta would count; he's betraying Freeza during the Namek arc, and he's never really on Earth's side (or at least, not until much later). The trope description as-written suggests that the trope only applies to established subordinates, not equal-standing partners. (I realize this contradicts what I said above, but I think I stated it badly there.)

In other words, Reliable Traitor is when Alice works for Bob, not because she's loyal to Bob, but because working for Bob furthers her own plans. Alice and Bob both know this, and both know that Alice will jump ship as soon as working for Bob is no longer beneficial, but also both know that she'll serve ably and well until then. So Bob has a capable and reliable minion as long as his own plans align with Alice's, and Alice benefits from the greater resources available to Bob's organization until it comes time to strike out on her own.

Of course, if Alice and Bob's ultimate goals conflict, then Alice may graduate to The Starscream and plot to overthrow Bob, or Bob may decide that You Have Outlived Your Usefulness and have Alice killed before she becomes a liability. But hey, until then, it's a win-win situation for everybody.

edited 10th Sep '14 10:29:46 AM by NativeJovian

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too.

I am down with that redefinition.

Agreed, that interpretation seems clear enough.

Ok, so how does one go about renaming and rewriting a trope?

~Kyle Jacobs, a trope is renamed by asking for a rename crowner (in this case I would use a Page Action crowner with "Redefine to @11 and rename").

Ok, could you set that up please? Or do you not have awesome mod powers in TRS?

edited 3rd Oct '14 2:58:10 AM by KyleJacobs

Crowner's hooked.

Since we're unanimous so far, should I get to work on the rewrite?

No, not enough consensus yet...needs a few more votes.

Offering up a rewrite (like in a sandbox) is a good thing even if it hasn't been approved yet.

Gotcha. How's this?

That's pretty good as far as I can tell. I made some formatting tweaks and namespaced Vinland Saga.

By the way, we may want to keep a record of the current version of the page somewhere. There's another YKTTW nagging at me, but I want to finish cleaning up my other launches before I bring anything new to the table.

edited 7th Oct '14 6:25:57 AM by KyleJacobs

Alright, so it seems like there's enough votes to rename. So, now to discuss names.

I'm not sure whether I like Self Interested Ally or Self Interested Minion more, but if someone wants to try and come up with something better I'd love to hear it.