Angst vs Wangst and all that jazz (trigger warning just in case)

I've long been curious as to exactly WHAT point a character crosses the line from "acceptable" angst into annoying emo-brat crap. Sometimes it feels like a much thinner line that I thought, since it seems like some angsty/tragic past characters end up as either a Scrappy or a Base Breaker in some people's eyes; Sasuke and Shadow the Hedgehog come to mind.

There's one character of mine that worries me a lot in this regard, because I think I may have overdone it. Basically he is a poor farm boy raised by an alcoholic (as well as occasionally physically and verbally abusive) mother and a man who is not his biological father (though he doesn't yet know this); said man whom he thinks of as his father either leaves or dies in some fashion, I haven't decided yet.

He later has a hard time of it in school because he's sick a lot and misses out on a lot of stuff, plus he goes to school with many kids who come from richer families and they're assholes to him. He later (naively) starts hanging with a rough crowd of delinquents in high school and winds up taking the fall for a lot of their doings.

He gets married at a fairly young age and has a child, but he doesn't treat either of them very well, cheating on the wife and all but neglecting the child. When his wife finds out about his affair and confronts him, he snaps and hits her, which is the final straw for her. She leaves him and takes the kid, and by this point the poor guy hates himself and his life so much that he hangs himself, but winds up coming back as a rather ugly revenant, and none of his family recognizes him.

Initially he hates his condition, but once he discovers that being a revenant gives him some hardcore superpowers, he comes to accept and even appreciate his condition, because now no one can hurt him anymore (or so he thinks). He later becomes a rather prideful vigilante/bounty hunter type, but deep down feels guilty about what he does for a living and the fact that he's so ugly and frightening, but at the same time still enjoys being a revenant very much. And this is actually his main source of conflict; he doesn't just angst about his past.

So...have I overdone it? Is this dude destined for "Shut-Up-Emo-Kid" territory? Should I tone him down at all?

edited 27th Apr '14 8:26:21 PM by Fangmane

It all comes down to whether it's justified. If the character is suffering an emotional reaction due to a believable stimulus (e.g. post-traumatic stress after going through a particularly gruesome conflict, pressure due to responsibility, or frustration due to uncertainty) then it generally doesn't bother me. But if it's just being fed artificially into the piece because the creator feels a character should be tense and snappy just because, well, they just look stupid. WRT your character, I dunno; without reading the actual text, he sounds ok, if that happened to me I'd be a little bummed. Just make any angst he goes through temporary, keep him moving forward in his life, or un-life, and all should be well.

But that's just this troper's opinion.

For me it only becomes wangst when it isn't justified, and basically just overreacts everything.

For others, any kind of emotional moment from a badass is unacceptable.

If it helps in distinguishing between "angst" and "wangst", "wangst" was coined back in the days of Usenet, and it was originally spelled "Waa-ngst", and was used in the sense of "crying like a little child in the middle of a tantrum."

In the case of Sasuke, I believe most of the accusations come from people who haven't watched the show and are simply judging him because he "looks emo."

Good point. Personally, there are other things I want to do with roughly 300+ hours of my life.

Like play TF 2, for instance

edited 28th Apr '14 9:22:38 PM by gingerman

As others have said, it's a subjective call.

But to elaborate a little further, at least regarding my theory on the thought process behind it, it's about how much the character is defined by his/her angst. Or rather, how much time the character focuses on his/her angst. If everything the character does or experiences - and by extension all we, the audience, see of the character - comes back to the angst, then it will come across as boring, one-note and tedious no matter how warranted the reaction is. In contrast, if the character is multi-faceted and has some other attributes, then it gives us some reprieve - and especially for those who aren't into angst or have a low threshold for it, something else to focus on.

edited 29th Apr '14 6:17:19 PM by peasant

As I posted in a YKTTW:

• Luke Skywalker: whinny emo brat when we first meet him. He has a whine that makes an X-wing sound like a lullaby. But that's because he's just a farmboy when we first meet him. He starts training and when Yoda whips him into shape, he listens (okay he gets his hand cut off but still he listens). So by ROTJ he's worthy enough to confront Darth Vader and smart enough to realize that doesn't mean fighting him.

• Annikin Skywalker: In Attack of the Clones as deconstructed by Red Letter Media, is nothing but whine, whine, whine. The Relationship Writing Fumble makes this standout a lot more. However all he seemed to do was complain, whine and talk about himself. By Revenge of The Sith, he's not even the least bit likeable nor does he seem to have a motivation. But the complaing seems to be Up To Eleven...

I think it's also HOW you do it. Like when a character ONLY seems to complain then him complaining is nothing special or different. Making them complain about more dramatic stuff won't make them more appealing to the author because it seems bad.Or if they seem to act like it's all about them and wangst about their problems and expect people to feel sorry for him when there are better things to be done.

Sometimes it isn't that it's too much but the way it's written. A friend on here once told me "wasngst isn't necessarily 'too much angst' but 'poorly written angst'".

And don't forget that angst is part of the story.

A character has a rough homelife, okay. But it should shape the character. She has trust issues, he carries a weapon because it was Vice City. It's referenced but it's not in every bit of dialogue. She admits that she can't trust the hero completely but she says respect him. He puts his knife away after the hero saves him.

Sometimes the character's "angst" seems to be the focus. In Neon Genesis Evangelion, Shinji is always angsting as the angels try to destroy the world. The series is still good, but even Eva fans have their "I can't stand emo-Shinji" moments. If the character is worried about their [INSERT_ANGST-Y_STUFF_HERE] fine, but when the Big Bad is a 'whompin' and a 'stomping, they should worry about that too. When the story gets quiet, then go back to it.

edited 1st May '14 8:26:07 PM by TairaMai

Yeah, Shinji is another character I meant to mention in my original post. I knew I was forgetting something...

Is WHAT the character is angsting over a factor too? Like, are some things more... IDK, angst-appropriate than others?

how much angst a character can have seems pretty subjective to me. I know a lot of people complain about Shinji angsting but for me personally, I found 90% of Shinji's angsting completely understandable. the kid clearly has an anxiety problem of some sort and should be seeing help, not piloting a robot. for me the only real time Shinji's whining came off as wangsting was in the first few episodes, where he coming in angsting right off the bat without any context for the audience. it was annoying and something that should be avoided when writing. make sure we, the audience knows why the character is angsting before they start angsting.

what they angst about is also pretty subjective too. broad audience expectation of what a character is supposed to be in the overall narrative tend to be used for measurement. its one of the (many) reasons people don't like Shinji Ikari all that much. he breaks away form the audience expectation in a rather semi-insulting manner. Shinji angsts a lot, but most of his angsting is on comparatively mundane real-world problems, I.E. his emotional problems, instead of on the fantastical elements of the genre, which before NGE came along, mostly feed off of escapism.

now as for your character, he seems (on a conceptual level) okay. I wouldn't find him to be a "shut-up-emo-kid". it really seems like the problem would be in the execution. then again, is there more to the character than just his trauma/angsting? and is there more to the story than just the characters internal problems? if so, than I think you'll be fine.

actually Shinji only really did in End Of Evangelion by which point he had long past the Despair Event Horizon . before the series neared its end Shinji was usually pretty good about the whole Angel issue.

As for what is angst vs. wangst:

• A character with a "tragic past" that isn't a background event but shapes the character. Again it's not about sympathy points, that's the Sympathetic Sue: "Feel bad for me!" It's when we see the events and how it shapes the character. And the character can function on their own without crying every scene.

• If the character responds to efforts at help, or if the character is Driven to Suicide, it had better be for a good reason.

• As one author says it: "A Victim says that it's all right to step all over them, because their pain somehow makes them special. They want somebody else to save them, and make everything all right. I don't do that. I'm a Hero- I save myself.": Bek D. Corbin

edited 2nd May '14 3:58:12 PM by TairaMai

Speaking of Anakin, this video about him ALSO comments on the difference between angst and wangst (though he calls it angst vs misery) and how people often confuse the two.

Skip to 5:25, for some reason the links not doing that.

edited 2nd May '14 5:52:23 PM by Lunacorva

That last quote actually sums up the attitude of my character pretty well; he knows people who would be glad to "cure" him and either allow him to finally die or just bring him back as a normal person, but for various reasons he refuses their help, and even gets offended by their efforts.

Then again he's also a pretty prideful man who doesn't like depending on others.

edited 4th May '14 2:27:55 PM by Fangmane