Shan Yu From Mulan - Badass or Boring

So I just watched the Nostalgia Critic's review of Mulan and he described Shan Yu (the chief antagonist of Mulan) as one of the most forgettable villains in all of Disney cinema history. He gave several good arguments for it such as the lack of lines and character development.

I, however, disagree. I think Shan Yu's silent nature made him badass. You don't know why he does what he does or his backstory - which only adds to his mystique. He has the Darth Maul/Boba Fett effect in my mind. I mean, visually, he looks so awesome - like a falcon made of muscles and his fighting style is ferocious that you feel like you're watching an animal brawl.

But that's just my opinion. What do you guys think? Badass or boring?

Both things aren't mutually excluding, but I'd say Badass.

I think it's just that it he fell in a sort of "middle spot". He's not silent and mysterious enough to have the shady and intriguing mystique someone like Darth Maul, but he also doesn't speak enough to be as fascinating like someone such as Scar from the Lion King.

He's that type of character that should have been entirely silente (Think about it: Shan Yu never speaking and only communicating with his Huns via body language would be pretty fearsome and impactating) or talk a bit more, to clue us more in his personality.

The thing is, Shan Yu's characterization makes perfect sense for this kind of movie. If you look and the more memorable villains, they tend to be very cloak and dagger with what they do, working more through manipulation. Shan Yu, on the other hand, has to be a humanoid force of nature for the story to work.

Why are people taking the words of the Nostalgia Critic seriously?

He usually has some good points for as to why he doesn't like whatever he doesn't like.

I don't take his reviews seriously I think it is just supposed to be entertainment that is why I watch it.

Then perhaps he would have been more eficient as solely physical force, being silent like I suggested, making him entirely physical. Which would have been pretty interesting.

edited 12th Feb '14 6:32:38 PM by Gaon

Shan Yu has some of the best lines in the film. It'd be a shame to cut those out.

"How many men are needed to deliver a message?"

"One."

Best thing in the whole movie. Let's not lose it.

Then we could go the other way and make him talk more to explore his character further while remaning physical.

Agree. Cool as hell delivery on that line.

That'd be cool as long as he wasn't too loquacious. I think his lines should be limited to one or two meaningful sentences - no fluff for him. His voice is too cool for fluff.

Also it's interesting to note that Shan Yu is the only character in Mulan not to treat her horribly for being a woman.

edited 12th Feb '14 7:12:12 PM by FantasyLiver

Just tries to kill her for wiping out his army.

I meant he doesn't hate or assault her because she's a woman. He hates and assaults her because, as you said, she avalanched his men to death. Kind of difficult to look past. He's an equal opportunity villain - he'll beat the shit out of you regardless of race, religion, or gender!

Well, since all he does is rave like an animal, he's bound to be forgettable. But his army skills kinda make up.

Shan Yu is not that interesting, but he doesn't need to be because he isn't actually the principal antagonist of the movie. The A plot is Mulan's journey to navigate the maze of gendered expectations in her society and find herself in all of it, and in that sense the principal antagonist is society itself and its restrictive mores. The Hun invasion is the B plot.

Mulan's family, Mushu, Ling, Shen Po, Yao.

Rave like an animal? He's pretty collected and cold for most of the movie. By the time he's raging at the end, it's because his plans are falling apart and he's having to think hard on the fly. So, the trope Villainous Breakdown.

edited 12th Feb '14 7:42:11 PM by Tuckerscreator

Shan Yu is not so much a character as he is in a sense a force of nature. He and the Huns exist both literally and metaphorically outside the entire Chinese culture. Forces of nature do not care about gender, honor, or rank, they simply are. Why invade China and begin slaughtering? Because's its there.

There's a telling image in the film of the little girl's doll placed next to the General's helmet, which tells you everything about Shan Yu's threat; two distinctly different people, about as different as you can imagine, and both as quickly his victims. Its why the Chinese forces must look past their own prejudices and act together, because the Huns will make no such distinctions in their destruction.

And for the character bits he does have, he serves as a reasonably good opposite role to Mulan. She's struggling to figure out her future, is insecure, and just wants to know who she is. Shan Yu already knows exactly who he is; that's partially what makes him so dangerous.

edited 12th Feb '14 8:06:35 PM by BorneAgain

Good points but Yao, Ling, and Chien Po did seem okay to leave Mulan to die in the snow, didn't they?

This. Yeah, he's badass, and boring. But the thing is, he doesn't need to be interesting. The plot of the movie isn't about Shan Yu, or even about Shan Yu's invasion. It's about Mulan and her trying to take a place in the army and her avoiding then facing the prejudice and social roles imposed on her gender. Shan Yu's only there to provide the impetus for The Call and a few action scenes and the climax. In a way, he's less involved in the story than most villains in Disney movies, so his lessened time in the spotlight - and his more boringness - makes sense. It's not the movie about Shen Yu's defeat at the hands of Mulan the way Aladdin is about Aladdin overcoming Jaffar or The Lion King is about Lion-Hamlet overcoming his treasonous uncle or The Little Mermaid about a girl's Faustian Deal with a witch.

Like they could've fleshed him out more, but there's no real reason because ultimately he's not that directly important to the plot. Doesn't make him a bad antagonist, just one suited to his role.

edited 12th Feb '14 8:04:30 PM by Ghilz

Another good point. In a way - his story purpose almost requires him to be boring in a sense. However, would you describe him as forgettable or did you think Disney did a good job in portraying a villain like this?

Both? He's forgettable compared to actual "major" Disney villains (Ones with more plot bearing that he does). They still did a good job with him nonetheless but as I said, his purpose for the plot means he can't compare to the likes of Scar, Ursula, Gaston, Jaffar, etc... He's still very good for his purpose in the plot, but comparing him to the other villains is like comparing apples to oranges. He's forgettable in a sense yes, but still well crafted (Like his aforementioned awesome line of dialogue).

A big thing that doesn't help him is that he's got like no direct tie to the protagonist, Mulan. Their opposition is almost incidental. They are on two sides of a larger conflict. Mulan doesn't know Shan Yu personally. And he sure as hell doesn't know her for most of the movie. Unlike say. Scar and Simba, who are both closely tied together, or Jaffar and Aladdin, or really the majority of Disney villains with their own protagonists - the two tend to be intricately tied togheter and have more impact on one another. Shan Yu could be replaced by like any warlord, and 95% of Mulan's plot would go unchanged. Aladdin's story would have been completely different without his encounter with Jaffar in the dungeons. And Simba's story wouldn't even exist without Scar. Sleeping Beauty would not be occur without Maleficent. In those cases, the villain's identity and self is integral to the plot - no one could fulfil that role.

In that sense Shan yu is a succesful attempt to make more interesting a role that could've been even more generic. Because really, most of his scenes involving Mulan could see him swapped with any "generic tough Hun Soldier" and the plot would not change.

edited 12th Feb '14 8:18:20 PM by Ghilz

Well, 1) They probably didn't have much choice, being in the army, and 2) they weren't leaving her to die. They left her with treated wounds, a horse, and a weapon with the Imperial City in sight.

Re: Yao, Ling, and Chien Po being okay with leaving Mulan to die in the snow, no. They immediately stepped in to try to stop her execution and only backed down because as Chi Fu says, "You know the law!" and they were subordinate.

Re: Shan Yu being the only character not to treat her horribly for being a woman, also no. Of the 16 characters of significant importance other than Mulan, only one of them treated her horribly for being a woman: Chi Fu.

The Matchmaker treated her horribly for being an imperfect woman (a related but separate issue). Shang briefly treated her horribly for deceiving him and leaving him with a dilemma between executing a respected comrade and disobeying the law, but got over it later.

Yao and Ling treated her horribly at first for accidentally causing huge amounts of trouble, but started being nicer and stayed consistent after finding out she was a woman. Her mother, father, and grandmother treated her nicely the whole time or almost the whole time, and so did Chien-Po. The non-human characters, Mushu, Cri-Kee, and Khan, were fairly neutral but more-or-less nice to her. The Great Ancestor went out of his way to guard her. The Emperor voluntarily bowed to her despite her breaking all sorts of laws. And General Li never even met her, so he can be safely ignored.

Society as a whole (including the army laws) treats her poorly for being a woman, but it's hard to say Shan Yu gets any sort of medal among the principal characters. The best we can say is that he's less sexist than the Hate Sink.

Re: the topic itself, Shan Yu is badass and boring, but that makes sense. In a lot of works that focus on an army in a war, the enemy army will be little more than, as someone said above, a living force of nature. This helps to make it easier to root for a hero(ine) who voluntarily kills lots of people.

I kind of feel like Disney was going for something a little different with Shan Yu. He's not as much of an acting character/individual as most other Disney villains. He's more like the representative of a giant encroaching evil force. He's the Big Bad, but he's more a symbol of how the Huns are portrayed in the movie: like a merciless, unstoppable Determinator wave that comes ever closer - the big effect he has on the plot is how the other characters act in response to the threat of him being there, rather than necessarily anything he does personally.

Basically, the big focus in the movie is interpersonal stuff between the characters and finding one's own courage (as a warrior and in life, etc). Shan Yu and the Huns are the more the catalyst that makes that all happen. Which is why if you think about it, they're kind of boring themselves - even though the things they do are not.

edited 12th Feb '14 11:39:52 PM by KnownUnknown